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you could just think of just somebody I

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want your attention everything we're

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going to leave you always first you know

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nobody does magic quite like Disney the

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sciency wizard the wand the spells it's

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all burned into our collective

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consciousness along with the idea that

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it's all silly nonsense but hey what

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about this so I should back up a second

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here and say I'm talking in a way the

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year ago I would never have talked I

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wouldn't have used the words magic and I

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wouldn't have talked about spirit or

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anything of that sort

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that's dr. Dean Radin the dr. Dean Radin

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preeminent parapsychology researcher

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pioneering researcher and he's talking

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with today's guests author and chaos

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magician Gordon white and this is so

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this is all relatively new for me I know

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a little bit more than I did a year ago

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so I just wrote a book on this but the

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the thing that sparked my interest in

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looking into the esoteric traditions is

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that I've been working in cyber search

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for something like three decades almost

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four decades now and I had to think

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really hard for anybody who ever talked

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about what a couple of anthropologists

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will talk about the psychic and shaman

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connections as real as opposed to as

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theater and in the most recent large

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book which is the state of the art book

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on the cyber search called handbook of

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parapsychology for the 21st century the

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word magic doesn't even show up in the

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index I found this kind of puzzling

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because I'm of course everybody is well

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aware of what the shaman is claimed to

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be able to do and we're well aware that

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that of notions of what magic is at

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least the ways portrayed in

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entertainment and I became curious as to

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why it doesn't show up I mean I'm

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involved in the in the profession of

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studying magic if we think of magic in

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the proper terms so I went through this

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whole business of seeing if I can

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synthesize what are the basic magical

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practices and seeing if I can map it

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onto SCI research and of course it

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completely Maps 100% map I was shocked

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at how come I didn't know this know

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virtually because no one ever talks

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about it because and then well why is

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that well we're being scientists that's

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why so fully take that in for a minute

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the leading light of SCI research Dean

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Radin is telling us that SCI the stuff

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that's blown the lid off of grandpa's

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dopey old materialistic science will he

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seems to be saying that that isn't

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really science at all it's maybe better

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termed magic yeah I have this definition

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down to a refined sentence now that I'm

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subsequently explained which is magic is

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a culture specific way of using or

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interacting with the natural

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consciousness capacities of a particular

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human but here is Gordon again this time

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he's chatting it up with philip watt on

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his magic themed podcast redesigning

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society but tell me as you're listening

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does this sound like a podcast about

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magic or a science podcast because I'm

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not sure which is which anymore

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so that might sound a bit circular but

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actually if you look across the world at

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systems or cultures that have never

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never repudiated magic in the same way

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that the Northwest European

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enlightenment it might be very specific

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about that in Europe because you

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actually find him in southern Europe

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that it's carried on merrily in the kind

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of folk traditions of Italian

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grandmothers and so on but it's it's a

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very specific Cartesian

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enlightenment world out of all of human

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history that repudiated it but if you

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look around the world

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there are sort of what you might call

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quote unquote magical powers for one of

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a less dramatic term a number of

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techniques that are reasonably conserved

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so you have some method of seeing the

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future or clairvoyance you have some

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method of communicating across distance

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so you have telepathy or whatever you

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want to call it these are just modern

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words for capacities right and then you

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have interacting with or communicating

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with the spirit world and then you have

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some method as a result of that

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typically of what I would call

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probability enhancement or probability

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manipulation which is to make the things

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that you want happen more often than the

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things that you don't want to happen

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what's interesting to me about that is

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if you look at the history of say the

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development of psy and the Society for

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psychical research and all these kind of

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groups that emerged about 150 years ago

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we now have a hundred and fifty years of

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evidence from the mostly laboratory

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evidence that basically falls neatly

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into these four categories now don't get

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me wrong it's not like I'm pining for a

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simple-minded world of biological robots

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in a meaningless universe a paradigm

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that we've thoroughly trashed on this

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show over the years but at the same time

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I'm not entirely sure Dean Radin knows

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what he's signing up for here's a coke

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philosophy expert and more importantly

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practicing ceremonial magician dr.

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Stephen Skinner on Greg Carl Watts

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higher side chats show one of the basic

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grimoire things is that the parchment

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that you do the key seals on things must

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be made from animal because parchment is

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animal skin and that you should make it

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yourself

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and I am done-that and it's quite an

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interesting procedure and it's hard work

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and I can tell you that parchment rather

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than paper or plastic or something is

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much more effective so perhaps in some

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reason the spirit can I won't say see it

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but understand the sigils on it because

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it's written on something that was once

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living as you just sketch it out of the

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compass on a piece of paper it's much

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much much less effective Wow people will

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not push themselves to do those things

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one day somebody may discover how you

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can do sigils on plastic and still get

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the same effect but it sure as hell is

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not going to be me yeah I mean once we

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can do it on face book we're all going

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to be sad yeah it will not happen yeah

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the there are only certain images and

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things that the spirits recognized these

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are not what comes up on Facebook damn

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well as for people's fears on this kind

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of stuff I've heard you discuss the

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classic notion of the Faustian pact this

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idea of making a deal with a trickster

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and losing your soul and that it was

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more of a Christian invention to scare

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people off and I think that's really

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interesting how can we separate real

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concerns and dangers and dealing with

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this kind of thing from that lingering

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propaganda residue okay you're

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absolutely right it is largely a

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Christian blossom the Faust books that

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he lost his salt the pact is real but

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the pact is what the spirit makes with

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you and it's his obligations to you that

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written into the pact the the the whole

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idea you saw the water at the end I

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think is a priest's fear rather than a

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magician's view

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there are dangers in magic one of them

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is obsession there are a number of

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people who get obsessed or possessed

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anyway but if you're actually actively

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calling particular spirit and you have

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no defense and you don't know what

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you're doing then it is occasionally

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happens that the spirit will take up

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residence and then you've got a serious

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problem and you need an exorcist who

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knows what they're doing so there are

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dangers in doing magic it's like you

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know electricity with the right

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insulation at the right circle the

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rights for lack Tory you don't get

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zapped but if you do these things and

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you know handle the wire without without

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the right proportions then you may get

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zapped

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so some magic like like physics or doing

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household electrics is not without

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danger brave be the scientist who wants

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to bring that into the lab but that may

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in fact be the future of parapsychology

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and it's one of the reasons I wanted to

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talk to Gordon

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today on skeptic oh how do you really

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bring magic into the lab if you come to

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that worldview shift and you say okay I

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really don't understand what I'm

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measuring he wants his scientific cake

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and he wants to eat it too I mean isn't

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there an inherent problem with that yeah

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absolutely and but I think you sort of

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nailed it when he said you mentioned 20

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years in terms of people kind of looking

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at dr. Aidan's research and sort of

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figuring out what he was doing or is

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doing I think in a lot of fields we're

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at that point now where to sort of quote

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Pete Carril magic works in practice but

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not in theory so I'm just I'm sort of

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sanguine about it Dean's gonna be wrong

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as we all are and I think between now

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and how we get to even the word sciences

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maybe not correct for it but how we get

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to ace a method of inquiry that is a

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least worst match for these phenomena

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it's going to require a lot of things

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that's going to require

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interdisciplinary research so it's gonna

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require anthropology it's gonna require

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a history biology it's going to need all

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these things that we don't have the

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words for it because our conception of

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the world has sort of outrun the way we

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structure learning about things even

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adding ology to a word and putting it in

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little sort of pillars and categories

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[Music]

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all that and much much more on this

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episode of skeptical

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[Music]

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today we welcome Gordon white back to

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skeptical Gordon is the creator of rune

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soup where he talks and writes about

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magic culture the paranormal among other

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things you may remember Gordon's

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appearance on skeptiko to talk about his

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excellent book starships which is one of

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several books he's authored that you can

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find on his website or just by searching

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his name on Amazon like we all do

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he also was on for a very excellent

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interview that I know a lot of people

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saw but if you didn't I think you'd

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really want to check it out it's with

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plasma physicist dr. John Brandenburg

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and he's here today to really talk about

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the future of parapsychology but we may

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get into talking about the future of UFO

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research as well I have some really

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interesting stuff lined up for Gordon

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we'll see how all this goes welcome back

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Gordon thanks for joining me

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always a pleasure to be here so I tell

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you what without a lot of introduction I

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want to just jump right in the middle of

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this and I think people will catch on

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very quickly in terms of where I'm going

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a couple of months ago you published a

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couple of almost back-to-back interviews

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that were terrific and had an amazing

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overlap with a lot of stuff we do here

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on skeptic oh one was with probably the

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most prominent and well-known

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parapsychology researcher of our time

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dr. Dean Radin who comes on rune soup

274
00:13:02,170 --> 00:12:59,390
and announces that parapsychology is out

275
00:13:04,510 --> 00:13:02,180
and Magic has probably at the core of

276
00:13:08,590 --> 00:13:04,520
what he's really been studying for the

277
00:13:12,010 --> 00:13:08,600
last thirty years so that kind of sets

278
00:13:14,680 --> 00:13:12,020
your Rocking and then you have an

279
00:13:16,690 --> 00:13:14,690
interview with parapsychologist and

280
00:13:19,930 --> 00:13:16,700
trickster ologist

281
00:13:23,050 --> 00:13:19,940
George Hansen who pretty much in the

282
00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:23,060
course of an hour took back all the best

283
00:13:28,420 --> 00:13:25,850
and most interesting things ever said

284
00:13:31,900 --> 00:13:28,430
about the trickster phenomenon at least

285
00:13:33,940 --> 00:13:31,910
in my opinion he did so again with

286
00:13:36,850 --> 00:13:33,950
parapsychology being kind of one of the

287
00:13:40,420 --> 00:13:36,860
pillars of this show I thought wow you

288
00:13:45,910 --> 00:13:40,430
know why are these people saying this

289
00:13:48,130 --> 00:13:45,920
stuff to this magic guy who has been

290
00:13:51,300 --> 00:13:48,140
kind of a become you know quickly one of

291
00:13:54,700 --> 00:13:51,310
this kind of go to crossover magic

292
00:13:58,300 --> 00:13:54,710
parapsychology paranormal geopolitics

293
00:14:00,820 --> 00:13:58,310
thing that you do and well a lot here

294
00:14:03,310 --> 00:14:00,830
you are on skype on skeptic oh so that's

295
00:14:06,220 --> 00:14:03,320
what I think are launching off point yes

296
00:14:09,670 --> 00:14:06,230
I was good so let's start with that I

297
00:14:13,930 --> 00:14:09,680
set it up what did you think Dean Radin

298
00:14:16,510 --> 00:14:13,940
comes on the show and says hey Gordon or

299
00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:16,520
we're brothers here it's all about magic

300
00:14:23,110 --> 00:14:20,050
I mean what did you make of that and

301
00:14:25,060 --> 00:14:23,120
what does that mean for parapsychology I

302
00:14:25,770 --> 00:14:25,070
guess it's really cutting right to the

303
00:14:29,170 --> 00:14:25,780
chase

304
00:14:31,300 --> 00:14:29,180
well I'm like yourself I've been a fan

305
00:14:34,330 --> 00:14:31,310
of dr. Aidan for a very long time

306
00:14:37,210 --> 00:14:34,340
I love his stuff so and one of the

307
00:14:38,260 --> 00:14:37,220
things I really resonate with one of the

308
00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:38,270
things that I think is great about his

309
00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:40,250
work is that he dances or marches to his

310
00:14:45,130 --> 00:14:43,130
own drum so I think he's correct

311
00:14:47,050 --> 00:14:45,140
obviously when he said that it was sort

312
00:14:49,870 --> 00:14:47,060
of a well welcome to the tent dr. Aydin

313
00:14:52,300 --> 00:14:49,880
and I think we've kind of had that

314
00:14:54,610 --> 00:14:52,310
discussion in between couple years ago

315
00:14:56,410 --> 00:14:54,620
when starships came out and we had that

316
00:14:59,080 --> 00:14:56,420
discussion where I've said I think magic

317
00:15:00,910 --> 00:14:59,090
works but there is the kind of metal

318
00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:00,920
model for understanding all the things

319
00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:02,210
we talked about and I think it really

320
00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:05,570
does work better as a as a descriptor

321
00:15:10,420 --> 00:15:08,690
and baseline model and one of the

322
00:15:12,190 --> 00:15:10,430
challenges with parapsychology and it's

323
00:15:15,700 --> 00:15:12,200
something dr. Aydin and I spoke about is

324
00:15:19,510 --> 00:15:15,710
that it still has just by virtue of

325
00:15:21,700 --> 00:15:19,520
historical inertia a lot of kind of like

326
00:15:24,450 --> 00:15:21,710
19th century premises which they know

327
00:15:28,060 --> 00:15:24,460
not correct but even just the word

328
00:15:32,230 --> 00:15:28,070
parapsychology is constructed in a way

329
00:15:34,660 --> 00:15:32,240
that limits where the model or the the

330
00:15:36,430 --> 00:15:34,670
sort of field can go next and so I think

331
00:15:39,310 --> 00:15:36,440
dr. Aidan should be congratulated to go

332
00:15:41,620 --> 00:15:39,320
do you know what mankind which is

333
00:15:43,390 --> 00:15:41,630
obviously singing my song mankind has

334
00:15:45,369 --> 00:15:43,400
been doing this for a long time this is

335
00:15:50,379 --> 00:15:45,379
what it is and all these other words we

336
00:15:52,569 --> 00:15:50,389
is for it quote-unquote just woods but

337
00:15:54,969 --> 00:15:52,579
it gets tricky right you know I sent you

338
00:15:58,059 --> 00:15:54,979
another interview he did after he did

339
00:15:59,889 --> 00:15:58,069
your show he did Rick archers bat gap

340
00:16:02,559 --> 00:15:59,899
which was kind of a really interesting

341
00:16:04,899 --> 00:16:02,569
interview too because it ventured into

342
00:16:06,759 --> 00:16:04,909
the spiritual without really getting

343
00:16:08,619 --> 00:16:06,769
into the spiritual but a couple of

344
00:16:10,659 --> 00:16:08,629
things that he revealed he said look

345
00:16:13,019 --> 00:16:10,669
until about four or five years ago I

346
00:16:16,029 --> 00:16:13,029
wasn't really ready to give up

347
00:16:18,639 --> 00:16:16,039
materialism completely and I thought wow

348
00:16:21,369 --> 00:16:18,649
you know that really surprised me I got

349
00:16:23,769 --> 00:16:21,379
the sense that he had kind of jumped

350
00:16:27,849 --> 00:16:23,779
onto that boat and left the shore a

351
00:16:30,129 --> 00:16:27,859
while back and I couldn't help but feel

352
00:16:33,639 --> 00:16:30,139
even though like you I have the utmost

353
00:16:35,439 --> 00:16:33,649
respect for for his work and for his

354
00:16:38,349 --> 00:16:35,449
accomplishments what's he what he's done

355
00:16:41,559 --> 00:16:38,359
in the field is truly remarkable and and

356
00:16:43,929 --> 00:16:41,569
needs to be held up and and and really

357
00:16:46,059 --> 00:16:43,939
appreciated in a way that it it won't be

358
00:16:48,519 --> 00:16:46,069
for another 20 years but then that's the

359
00:16:53,169 --> 00:16:48,529
way it always is but I'm not sure he's

360
00:16:56,710 --> 00:16:53,179
really left all that sciency stuff

361
00:16:59,549 --> 00:16:56,720
before how do you really bring magic

362
00:17:02,769 --> 00:16:59,559
into the lab if you come to that

363
00:17:05,889 --> 00:17:02,779
worldview shift and you say okay I

364
00:17:09,340 --> 00:17:05,899
really don't understand what I'm

365
00:17:11,289 --> 00:17:09,350
measuring I'm giving up my presumption

366
00:17:16,509 --> 00:17:11,299
that I'm really going to be able to

367
00:17:19,149 --> 00:17:16,519
measure it then you know he he wants his

368
00:17:21,610 --> 00:17:19,159
scientific cake and he wants to eat it

369
00:17:25,059 --> 00:17:21,620
too I mean isn't there an inherent

370
00:17:26,649 --> 00:17:25,069
problem with that yeah absolutely and

371
00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:26,659
but I think you sort of nailed it when

372
00:17:31,899 --> 00:17:29,690
he said you mentioned 20 years in terms

373
00:17:33,850 --> 00:17:31,909
of people kind of looking at dr.

374
00:17:37,539 --> 00:17:33,860
Raymond's research and sort of figuring

375
00:17:40,509 --> 00:17:37,549
out what he was doing or is doing I

376
00:17:43,899 --> 00:17:40,519
think in a lot of fields we're at that

377
00:17:45,789 --> 00:17:43,909
point now where to sort of quote Pete

378
00:17:48,369 --> 00:17:45,799
Carril magic works in practice but not

379
00:17:51,270 --> 00:17:48,379
in theory so I'm just I'm sort of

380
00:17:53,490 --> 00:17:51,280
sanguine about it Dean's gonna be wrong

381
00:17:57,330 --> 00:17:53,500
as we all are and I think between now

382
00:17:59,190 --> 00:17:57,340
and how we get to even the word sciences

383
00:18:05,180 --> 00:17:59,200
maybe not correct for it but how we get

384
00:18:08,100 --> 00:18:05,190
to ace a method of inquiry that is a

385
00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:08,110
least worst match for these phenomena

386
00:18:11,820 --> 00:18:10,090
it's going to require a lot of things

387
00:18:13,410 --> 00:18:11,830
it's going to require interdisciplinary

388
00:18:14,910 --> 00:18:13,420
research so it's gonna require

389
00:18:18,360 --> 00:18:14,920
anthropology it's gonna require a

390
00:18:20,100 --> 00:18:18,370
history biology it's going to need all

391
00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:20,110
these things that we don't have the

392
00:18:27,750 --> 00:18:23,650
words for it because our conception of

393
00:18:30,810 --> 00:18:27,760
the world is sort of outrun the way we

394
00:18:34,110 --> 00:18:30,820
structure learning about things even

395
00:18:36,180 --> 00:18:34,120
adding ology to a word and and putting

396
00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:36,190
it in little sort of pillars and

397
00:18:40,290 --> 00:18:38,050
categories I tell you what let's let's

398
00:18:43,860 --> 00:18:40,300
take that to the to its natural

399
00:18:48,780 --> 00:18:43,870
conclusion tell me what happens when

400
00:18:51,060 --> 00:18:48,790
Dean brings magic into the lab like what

401
00:18:52,710 --> 00:18:51,070
which we let's not talk totally inside

402
00:18:54,360 --> 00:18:52,720
baseball I don't mind talking inside

403
00:18:57,090 --> 00:18:54,370
baseball on this show it's kind of the

404
00:19:01,050 --> 00:18:57,100
nature of it but you know Dean is

405
00:19:03,230 --> 00:19:01,060
probably most famous for his Six Sigma

406
00:19:05,190 --> 00:19:03,240
result that he's gotten from

407
00:19:07,350 --> 00:19:05,200
presentiment work right so the

408
00:19:11,190 --> 00:19:07,360
computer's displays an image on the

409
00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:11,200
screen and they measure my physiological

410
00:19:17,850 --> 00:19:15,490
response to a pupils dilating skin the

411
00:19:20,130 --> 00:19:17,860
emitted whatever they're gonna measure

412
00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:20,140
that and I'm going in and that's going

413
00:19:26,220 --> 00:19:24,010
to be that reaction is going to happen

414
00:19:28,590 --> 00:19:26,230
before the image is actually selected by

415
00:19:29,610 --> 00:19:28,600
the computer you've heard all that I'm

416
00:19:32,580 --> 00:19:29,620
the only everyone's heard all that a

417
00:19:35,460 --> 00:19:32,590
million times and the result of that he

418
00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:35,470
gets these off-the-wall statistically

419
00:19:40,650 --> 00:19:37,690
significant results so let's not talk

420
00:19:43,830 --> 00:19:40,660
about specifically bringing that into

421
00:19:46,590 --> 00:19:43,840
the lab oh I'm sorry I digress too far

422
00:19:49,290 --> 00:19:46,600
there but so one of the things he's also

423
00:19:51,660 --> 00:19:49,300
known for is taking that experiment

424
00:19:54,180 --> 00:19:51,670
which was done over and over again

425
00:19:56,160 --> 00:19:54,190
replicated like something like 50 times

426
00:19:58,470 --> 00:19:56,170
or something primarily with college

427
00:20:02,070 --> 00:19:58,480
students just people off the street who

428
00:20:03,820 --> 00:20:02,080
don't have any professed special powers

429
00:20:07,029 --> 00:20:03,830
but he did some

430
00:20:08,620 --> 00:20:07,039
that may be point to this future that

431
00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:08,630
we're going to talk about of what

432
00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:10,850
happens when you bring a magician in the

433
00:20:16,210 --> 00:20:13,730
lab and that is he brought quote-unquote

434
00:20:18,399 --> 00:20:16,220
accomplished meditators and said okay

435
00:20:21,430 --> 00:20:18,409
you seem to have this ability to

436
00:20:24,490 --> 00:20:21,440
transcend time and space at least that's

437
00:20:27,549 --> 00:20:24,500
what you report in your meditation let's

438
00:20:29,919 --> 00:20:27,559
see how you perform in this do you

439
00:20:32,590 --> 00:20:29,929
perform any better at this now that

440
00:20:34,990 --> 00:20:32,600
we've shown that which is a wonderful

441
00:20:37,210 --> 00:20:35,000
thing you know to get to level 2 where

442
00:20:39,669 --> 00:20:37,220
we no longer just have to bang on the

443
00:20:41,590 --> 00:20:39,679
same thing yes it happened yes it

444
00:20:44,110 --> 00:20:41,600
happened yes it happened now he says hey

445
00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:44,120
does it happen differently when I bring

446
00:20:50,009 --> 00:20:47,090
in these people and the result is yes it

447
00:20:52,690 --> 00:20:50,019
does happen differently to people who

448
00:20:55,060 --> 00:20:52,700
say they have the ability to transcend

449
00:20:57,430 --> 00:20:55,070
space and time and oops here it shows up

450
00:21:00,850 --> 00:20:57,440
in the lab do you see something like

451
00:21:03,730 --> 00:21:00,860
that happening when the magician enters

452
00:21:06,370 --> 00:21:03,740
the lab yeah I do it I think the change

453
00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:06,380
for parapsychology is going to be for

454
00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:07,610
the last 150 years

455
00:21:14,399 --> 00:21:09,970
and rightly so they've been extremely

456
00:21:17,139 --> 00:21:14,409
rigorous and almost nitpicky with

457
00:21:18,700 --> 00:21:17,149
experimental protocols and and the

458
00:21:22,629 --> 00:21:18,710
results they have because they've been

459
00:21:24,549 --> 00:21:22,639
you know climbing a wall of division for

460
00:21:26,710 --> 00:21:24,559
150 years so though the game in that

461
00:21:29,019 --> 00:21:26,720
first one and a half centuries has been

462
00:21:32,500 --> 00:21:29,029
to say like here are the actual numbers

463
00:21:35,909 --> 00:21:32,510
here is here is the spreadsheet riddled

464
00:21:38,919 --> 00:21:35,919
me this materialists now the trouble is

465
00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:38,929
the next model I think Dean's right and

466
00:21:42,730 --> 00:21:40,010
it's it's heading in the right direction

467
00:21:46,450 --> 00:21:42,740
to bring meditators in when you're

468
00:21:50,250 --> 00:21:46,460
dealing with magic or a magic either as

469
00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:50,260
a practice or magic as a improved way of

470
00:21:54,639 --> 00:21:52,610
thinking about the world so that we may

471
00:21:57,100 --> 00:21:54,649
learn new things you kind of get a

472
00:22:00,250 --> 00:21:57,110
nonspecific uplift in people's lives so

473
00:22:02,889 --> 00:22:00,260
that's why you get similar I contend

474
00:22:04,509 --> 00:22:02,899
that's why you get similar results in

475
00:22:05,769 --> 00:22:04,519
terms of you know healing in

476
00:22:07,389 --> 00:22:05,779
synchronicity from people who are doing

477
00:22:10,210 --> 00:22:07,399
full blood magic versus people who are

478
00:22:12,519 --> 00:22:10,220
regularly praying in temple or church or

479
00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:12,529
what-have-you so you you kind of have to

480
00:22:17,020 --> 00:22:14,090
jump it up and make peace with the fact

481
00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:17,030
that the results aren't going to be

482
00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:20,250
as nitpicky as parapsychology is

483
00:22:26,210 --> 00:22:23,250
typically used to and it is in that kind

484
00:22:27,950 --> 00:22:26,220
of weird you can get their trajectories

485
00:22:30,610 --> 00:22:27,960
rather than pin down the numbers and I

486
00:22:33,110 --> 00:22:30,620
don't know how long it's going to take

487
00:22:35,510 --> 00:22:33,120
for potentially the field to have the

488
00:22:38,900 --> 00:22:35,520
confidence to stand behind that as a

489
00:22:41,030 --> 00:22:38,910
result in the same way that they do you

490
00:22:43,070 --> 00:22:41,040
know the really really precise stuff

491
00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:43,080
because that's kind of you know generals

492
00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:46,890
fighting the last wall or you know very

493
00:22:51,980 --> 00:22:49,770
clever researchers like Raiden who've

494
00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:51,990
been around the block and have the

495
00:22:57,440 --> 00:22:54,930
battle scars from all those wars are

496
00:23:00,830 --> 00:22:57,450
going to be very creative like he has

497
00:23:04,700 --> 00:23:00,840
been and think of ways to kind of work

498
00:23:06,890 --> 00:23:04,710
around the anticipated you know pushback

499
00:23:08,450 --> 00:23:06,900
and do it from the beginning because I

500
00:23:11,420 --> 00:23:08,460
don't think there's any other way to get

501
00:23:13,580 --> 00:23:11,430
around that sciency part you're gonna

502
00:23:15,820 --> 00:23:13,590
have to you're gonna have to produce

503
00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:15,830
results and you're gonna have to produce

504
00:23:20,120 --> 00:23:18,330
off-the-charts results to get anyone's

505
00:23:22,070 --> 00:23:20,130
attention otherwise everyone's going to

506
00:23:26,030 --> 00:23:22,080
just you know look the other way or

507
00:23:27,380 --> 00:23:26,040
worse you know I think and dr. Aden and

508
00:23:31,010 --> 00:23:27,390
I kind of spoke about that when he came

509
00:23:33,050 --> 00:23:31,020
on the show rather his biggest impact

510
00:23:36,050 --> 00:23:33,060
isn't going to be when he gets magicians

511
00:23:38,270 --> 00:23:36,060
into the lab because arguably as we know

512
00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:38,280
that's been done before in various MK

513
00:23:42,710 --> 00:23:40,770
projects in the 20th century but his

514
00:23:45,650 --> 00:23:42,720
biggest impact is going to be in that

515
00:23:47,750 --> 00:23:45,660
just classic Dean way when he stands up

516
00:23:49,550 --> 00:23:47,760
at these parapsychological events around

517
00:23:51,980 --> 00:23:49,560
the world and just says magic magic

518
00:23:53,690 --> 00:23:51,990
magic I do not I do magic but I study

519
00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:53,700
magic we all study magic thank you for

520
00:23:57,890 --> 00:23:56,490
your time that is going to you know

521
00:24:00,410 --> 00:23:57,900
cause a few monocles to drop out of

522
00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:00,420
people's eyes initially but the more he

523
00:24:07,220 --> 00:24:04,890
makes it okay to use the M word the kind

524
00:24:09,290 --> 00:24:07,230
of bigger uplift in or the kind of new

525
00:24:11,330 --> 00:24:09,300
directions the research can go and so in

526
00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:11,340
that sense he's there absolutely the

527
00:24:16,250 --> 00:24:13,050
right person to do it because he does

528
00:24:19,460 --> 00:24:16,260
not care very much what other people

529
00:24:21,710 --> 00:24:19,470
think which is to be admired and where

530
00:24:24,860 --> 00:24:21,720
do you think that new direction gets us

531
00:24:27,050 --> 00:24:24,870
I love what he's doing and what he's

532
00:24:28,910 --> 00:24:27,060
saying on the other hand and this has

533
00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:28,920
parallels with the Hansen interview that

534
00:24:33,570 --> 00:24:30,010
we'll talk about and many

535
00:24:36,150 --> 00:24:33,580
it does get rather fuzzy the more he

536
00:24:38,419 --> 00:24:36,160
gets into it and he starts saying you

537
00:24:41,430 --> 00:24:38,429
know well this is kind of it's really

538
00:24:44,190 --> 00:24:41,440
all about parapsychology that I've been

539
00:24:46,950 --> 00:24:44,200
studying anyway and I've kind of like no

540
00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:46,960
I think it is something more there is

541
00:24:53,850 --> 00:24:49,690
something essentially different about

542
00:24:55,289 --> 00:24:53,860
magic that if you leave that behind then

543
00:24:57,210 --> 00:24:55,299
you will just be repeating

544
00:25:00,240 --> 00:24:57,220
parapsychology experiments and we won't

545
00:25:05,159 --> 00:25:00,250
really be advancing do you kind of get

546
00:25:07,890 --> 00:25:05,169
worm drive yeah 100% because I I would

547
00:25:09,270 --> 00:25:07,900
argue and I did argue it and we've had

548
00:25:11,340 --> 00:25:09,280
this discussion that they are doing

549
00:25:14,130 --> 00:25:11,350
magic like if you were doing if you're

550
00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:14,140
doing telepathy research congratulations

551
00:25:18,120 --> 00:25:16,330
you're doing magic in the lab like as

552
00:25:22,740 --> 00:25:18,130
far as I'm concerned that's the case so

553
00:25:26,490 --> 00:25:22,750
yes there is the risk in in the hands of

554
00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:26,500
you know lesser researchers that you can

555
00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:28,330
just say okay well we'll call it magic

556
00:25:33,419 --> 00:25:29,410
now and we'll do another telepathy

557
00:25:35,669 --> 00:25:33,429
experiment again well no I think and

558
00:25:38,159 --> 00:25:35,679
funny like Dean kind of mentioned this

559
00:25:41,430 --> 00:25:38,169
where he says you know parapsychologist

560
00:25:44,580 --> 00:25:41,440
have physics Emily you reach the end of

561
00:25:47,039 --> 00:25:44,590
the usefulness of the of the discourse

562
00:25:49,350 --> 00:25:47,049
as a standalone and this is what I mean

563
00:25:52,020 --> 00:25:49,360
about the next steps need to be

564
00:25:54,270 --> 00:25:52,030
interdisciplinary and particularly I

565
00:26:00,080 --> 00:25:54,280
think with anthropology because you we

566
00:26:05,130 --> 00:26:00,090
now have the opportunity to engage with

567
00:26:09,030 --> 00:26:05,140
kind of non-western modes of doing this

568
00:26:10,830 --> 00:26:09,040
stuff and thinking about it on an on a

569
00:26:12,930 --> 00:26:10,840
level footing almost because we're kind

570
00:26:15,930 --> 00:26:12,940
of turn around ago and well turns out

571
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:15,940
you guys were correct and I think I

572
00:26:20,159 --> 00:26:18,010
don't know what it will look like but I

573
00:26:23,250 --> 00:26:20,169
know if parapsychology doesn't want to

574
00:26:27,299 --> 00:26:23,260
fall into a repetition trap just using

575
00:26:30,930 --> 00:26:27,309
the M word it needs it needs some sort

576
00:26:33,330 --> 00:26:30,940
of interdisciplinary experience and the

577
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:33,340
challenge there is that nobody likes it

578
00:26:37,950 --> 00:26:35,610
everyone thinks they're crackpots

579
00:26:41,950 --> 00:26:37,960
anthropologists I think quietly as in

580
00:26:43,539 --> 00:26:41,960
non publicly will be amenable to it and

581
00:26:45,639 --> 00:26:43,549
so they're probably the first ones you

582
00:26:48,700 --> 00:26:45,649
were looking for rather than wandering

583
00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:48,710
up to physicists or neuroscientists and

584
00:26:51,909 --> 00:26:50,450
I think they've kind of been chasing

585
00:26:54,940 --> 00:26:51,919
after the wrong friends in there in the

586
00:26:56,919 --> 00:26:54,950
playground for a while and joke's on the

587
00:26:58,419 --> 00:26:56,929
people who ignored them because you get

588
00:27:00,789 --> 00:26:58,429
these two together and start building

589
00:27:02,139 --> 00:27:00,799
other ones and it's a that's where the

590
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:02,149
interesting stuff is going to happen in

591
00:27:06,310 --> 00:27:04,490
the next few decades I think yeah I

592
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:06,320
don't know I kind of think that that

593
00:27:10,060 --> 00:27:08,330
cuts both ways I mean when you started

594
00:27:12,549 --> 00:27:10,070
that you said you know if you're doing

595
00:27:14,860 --> 00:27:12,559
it if you're studying telepathy in the

596
00:27:17,409 --> 00:27:14,870
parapsychology lab congratulations

597
00:27:20,860 --> 00:27:17,419
you're studying magic and I'd almost say

598
00:27:24,639 --> 00:27:20,870
no you have to you you can't go there

599
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:24,649
that is to me conceding to the fact that

600
00:27:28,690 --> 00:27:26,210
I don't know what the hell I'm studying

601
00:27:32,620 --> 00:27:28,700
you know I'm open to the idea that I'm

602
00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:32,630
studying more than telepathy but I don't

603
00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:35,690
know the beginnings of where that turns

604
00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:38,210
into magic where that where that has

605
00:27:43,870 --> 00:27:40,850
connections with anthropology where that

606
00:27:45,700 --> 00:27:43,880
has connections with the spirit world

607
00:27:48,549 --> 00:27:45,710
which again Dean you know you push him

608
00:27:51,549 --> 00:27:48,559
on that he's backing off way way way up

609
00:27:54,010 --> 00:27:51,559
fast as he can and it's kind of trying

610
00:27:56,529 --> 00:27:54,020
to find the safe space supersized thing

611
00:28:00,940 --> 00:27:56,539
which is just akin you know the last

612
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:00,950
refuge of the holding on of the material

613
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:05,090
thing I don't think you are there in in

614
00:28:10,360 --> 00:28:08,090
the magical world then you know I gotta

615
00:28:12,909 --> 00:28:10,370
down a note to you - I was gonna mention

616
00:28:15,250 --> 00:28:12,919
you know a guy that you liked and you've

617
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:15,260
pointed to in your work dr. Stephen

618
00:28:19,360 --> 00:28:17,690
Skinner you know who listened to him and

619
00:28:21,070 --> 00:28:19,370
I do not I just

620
00:28:23,740 --> 00:28:21,080
Wow we could have a lengthy discussion

621
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:23,750
on him but here's a guy bring him into

622
00:28:28,510 --> 00:28:25,610
the lab and he'll say oh you know it's

623
00:28:31,570 --> 00:28:28,520
important how sharp the knife is as you

624
00:28:33,220 --> 00:28:31,580
drag it around the floor the stone floor

625
00:28:36,490 --> 00:28:33,230
you know and he's saying all this

626
00:28:37,779 --> 00:28:36,500
bizarre stuff that I suspect if you got

627
00:28:40,210 --> 00:28:37,789
him in the lab because I've interviewed

628
00:28:43,299 --> 00:28:40,220
so many of these types of people who

629
00:28:47,350 --> 00:28:43,309
they're all 95% you know they're all I'm

630
00:28:50,049 --> 00:28:47,360
90 what I do a 95 percent effective it

631
00:28:51,639 --> 00:28:50,059
almost always works and then he's drawn

632
00:28:54,730 --> 00:28:51,649
all these conclusions and it works

633
00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:54,740
because for me because the sword is so

634
00:28:58,500 --> 00:28:55,690
sharp and

635
00:28:59,909 --> 00:28:58,510
pentagram is drawn just perfectly and

636
00:29:02,820 --> 00:28:59,919
all the rest of this stuff and I'm like

637
00:29:04,830 --> 00:29:02,830
man that stuff is gonna fall apart when

638
00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:04,840
you bring into the lab and whether it's

639
00:29:08,490 --> 00:29:06,490
in the lab or whether you go study them

640
00:29:11,700 --> 00:29:08,500
in in his room I don't care what you do

641
00:29:15,270 --> 00:29:11,710
they just don't have in my experience

642
00:29:16,890 --> 00:29:15,280
they don't really have even that that

643
00:29:19,380 --> 00:29:16,900
sense of rigor about what they're doing

644
00:29:23,700 --> 00:29:19,390
themselves so I laid a lot on the table

645
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:23,710
there pull all that apart for us when I

646
00:29:27,390 --> 00:29:25,570
said if you're studying telepathy in the

647
00:29:31,110 --> 00:29:27,400
lab you're doing magic I think you are I

648
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:31,120
just because you haven't worked out how

649
00:29:35,549 --> 00:29:33,450
to think about it if you were

650
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:35,559
non-verbally communicating with someone

651
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:36,970
in another room in a way that is

652
00:29:41,940 --> 00:29:39,730
accurate that's what we would call magic

653
00:29:45,570 --> 00:29:41,950
in the kind of Northwest European

654
00:29:46,950 --> 00:29:45,580
cultures right but the trouble and this

655
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:46,960
comes back to the limitation of the

656
00:29:51,810 --> 00:29:48,370
wordings in the fact that they're 19th

657
00:29:55,140 --> 00:29:51,820
century it is not we've both had dr. cry

658
00:29:56,970 --> 00:29:55,150
: if you look at cultures that haven't

659
00:29:59,310 --> 00:29:56,980
ever stepped away from this it's not

660
00:30:01,380 --> 00:29:59,320
supernatural it's not power like it's

661
00:30:03,779 --> 00:30:01,390
not beside psychology and it's not above

662
00:30:05,460 --> 00:30:03,789
the natural and that's where I think the

663
00:30:06,930 --> 00:30:05,470
steps into anthropology need to come

664
00:30:09,180 --> 00:30:06,940
from because we need to look at the

665
00:30:10,380 --> 00:30:09,190
words we've been using which have kind

666
00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:10,390
of tied our shoelaces together

667
00:30:14,070 --> 00:30:12,010
especially as we reach the end of the

668
00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:14,080
model and see what the you know the guys

669
00:30:19,490 --> 00:30:15,850
next to us are wearing on their feet and

670
00:30:24,270 --> 00:30:19,500
and give that a shot as for like I agree

671
00:30:25,980 --> 00:30:24,280
it's not that magic has the dr. scheme

672
00:30:28,770 --> 00:30:25,990
is an interesting example it's not that

673
00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:28,780
magic has the the definitive

674
00:30:35,340 --> 00:30:31,330
epistemology so it's not like magic is a

675
00:30:38,100 --> 00:30:35,350
better way epistemologically of you know

676
00:30:39,390 --> 00:30:38,110
creating an understanding of how we see

677
00:30:41,460 --> 00:30:39,400
the world so it's not that it has a

678
00:30:43,740 --> 00:30:41,470
provably better epistemology I don't

679
00:30:45,029 --> 00:30:43,750
know what it looks like when you sort of

680
00:30:46,620 --> 00:30:45,039
blend them together in skin is a good

681
00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:46,630
example of that and he kind of admits

682
00:30:51,659 --> 00:30:48,850
that he says yes I know this is actually

683
00:30:53,940 --> 00:30:51,669
quite a medieval belief that it is

684
00:30:57,779 --> 00:30:53,950
actual physical external spirits that

685
00:31:01,770 --> 00:30:57,789
respond to the sort of precision in a in

686
00:31:03,930 --> 00:31:01,780
a ritual magic context but nevertheless

687
00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:03,940
that's been my experience so he kind of

688
00:31:07,129 --> 00:31:05,770
doubles down on it in that case I don't

689
00:31:11,239 --> 00:31:07,139
think that's magic

690
00:31:13,909 --> 00:31:11,249
in a wider on to logical sense he's

691
00:31:16,310 --> 00:31:13,919
specifically referring to Solomonic

692
00:31:18,259 --> 00:31:16,320
grimoire a magic and as and he may be

693
00:31:20,359 --> 00:31:18,269
correct in that like that actually maybe

694
00:31:23,509 --> 00:31:20,369
in the same way you're not really doing

695
00:31:26,389 --> 00:31:23,519
a we do with that aboard for interacting

696
00:31:28,820 --> 00:31:26,399
with those sort of spirits it may need

697
00:31:30,409 --> 00:31:28,830
those protocols but that doesn't mean

698
00:31:33,649 --> 00:31:30,419
the same thing as at play when you're

699
00:31:36,109 --> 00:31:33,659
using tarot cards or sigil magic or so

700
00:31:38,029 --> 00:31:36,119
on so that's where the challenge that

701
00:31:40,220 --> 00:31:38,039
worked where the very beginning of

702
00:31:43,310 --> 00:31:40,230
having that kind of interdisciplinary

703
00:31:46,460 --> 00:31:43,320
discussion and these are sort of natural

704
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:46,470
road bumps in those first few years so

705
00:31:50,419 --> 00:31:47,970
now we need to drill into that because

706
00:31:52,700 --> 00:31:50,429
now we're hitting it in a way that I

707
00:31:55,669 --> 00:31:52,710
haven't heard anyone talk about it so we

708
00:31:58,180 --> 00:31:55,679
go back to dr. Stephen Skinner and he's

709
00:32:00,830 --> 00:31:58,190
saying a couple of things that are

710
00:32:03,349 --> 00:32:00,840
shocking to a lot of people but I

711
00:32:04,970 --> 00:32:03,359
certainly admire the way that he just

712
00:32:07,549 --> 00:32:04,980
kind of lays it out on the table and you

713
00:32:09,289 --> 00:32:07,559
should really well I'm gonna say it as I

714
00:32:11,629 --> 00:32:09,299
understand it and you can correct me

715
00:32:13,129 --> 00:32:11,639
because this is you have much deeper and

716
00:32:17,930 --> 00:32:13,139
better understanding of it but he says

717
00:32:21,799 --> 00:32:17,940
number one I'm not appealing to God or

718
00:32:25,729 --> 00:32:21,809
some divine entity I'm appealing to kind

719
00:32:28,460 --> 00:32:25,739
of this middle layer of spirits that can

720
00:32:30,639 --> 00:32:28,470
affect this material world so that's one

721
00:32:32,810 --> 00:32:30,649
thing that I think is extremely

722
00:32:35,590 --> 00:32:32,820
interesting you know one talk about

723
00:32:37,639 --> 00:32:35,600
ontology I mean that's pretty

724
00:32:40,669 --> 00:32:37,649
controversial I'll just leave it at that

725
00:32:45,229 --> 00:32:40,679
and then number two he's saying and I

726
00:32:48,529 --> 00:32:45,239
can command them to do my bidding I can

727
00:32:52,039 --> 00:32:48,539
make them if I perform these certain

728
00:32:56,690 --> 00:32:52,049
rituals and acts in a certain way they

729
00:32:57,499 --> 00:32:56,700
are required to act on my behalf in the

730
00:33:00,729 --> 00:32:57,509
material world

731
00:33:02,810 --> 00:33:00,739
now that would one that's incredibly

732
00:33:04,249 --> 00:33:02,820
controversial and as you say then

733
00:33:05,989 --> 00:33:04,259
there's a lot to pull apart well how

734
00:33:07,460 --> 00:33:05,999
does that compare with someone else's

735
00:33:09,139 --> 00:33:07,470
magic how does that compare with Tarot

736
00:33:11,869 --> 00:33:09,149
or astrology or

737
00:33:13,039 --> 00:33:11,879
spell casting or you know whatever you

738
00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:13,049
would know that world better than I do

739
00:33:19,909 --> 00:33:15,690
so you have all that and then number two

740
00:33:20,510 --> 00:33:19,919
you have okay but in the process of

741
00:33:23,210 --> 00:33:20,520
proving

742
00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:23,220
you've now any co-conspirators in the

743
00:33:28,100 --> 00:33:25,290
research project right because you're

744
00:33:29,690 --> 00:33:28,110
saying through these forces and and he's

745
00:33:32,330 --> 00:33:29,700
personifying them you know he's saying

746
00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:32,340
there's these entities out there that

747
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:34,290
are gonna come in and work on this

748
00:33:38,810 --> 00:33:35,490
experiment with me

749
00:33:40,100 --> 00:33:38,820
I just don't know if Dean's ready for

750
00:33:40,910 --> 00:33:40,110
all that it doesn't sound like he's

751
00:33:45,350 --> 00:33:40,920
ready for that

752
00:33:47,870 --> 00:33:45,360
no but he is not and that is when you're

753
00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:47,880
talking about dr. Steven Skinner and you

754
00:33:53,810 --> 00:33:50,130
know the Solomonic grimoires you are at

755
00:33:57,350 --> 00:33:53,820
the extremes the wrong word but you're

756
00:33:59,240 --> 00:33:57,360
at the Olympic level love of magic as

757
00:34:01,370 --> 00:33:59,250
expressed in in Northwest European

758
00:34:02,750 --> 00:34:01,380
cultures because I when I if we're

759
00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:02,760
talking about the interview with Greg on

760
00:34:08,899 --> 00:34:06,330
high edge dance for instance I hear him

761
00:34:10,250 --> 00:34:08,909
say that and like you I want to jump in

762
00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:10,260
and do the interdisciplinary thing

763
00:34:14,710 --> 00:34:11,610
because if he's saying there are these

764
00:34:16,790 --> 00:34:14,720
intermediate these are separate

765
00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:16,800
sometimes physical sometimes

766
00:34:21,470 --> 00:34:18,810
non-physical beings that can interact

767
00:34:23,119 --> 00:34:21,480
and affect the physical world I want to

768
00:34:24,830 --> 00:34:23,129
jump in and go right so I want to sit

769
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:24,840
you down with some ufologists that I

770
00:34:29,510 --> 00:34:27,050
don't dislike and I want to go through

771
00:34:32,359 --> 00:34:29,520
where some of that will match because

772
00:34:35,210 --> 00:34:32,369
there is it is parsimonious to suggest

773
00:34:37,250 --> 00:34:35,220
that we are talking about at least the

774
00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:37,260
same in the broadest possible sense

775
00:34:40,669 --> 00:34:38,850
world so you kind of want to pull that

776
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:40,679
out and dr. Skinner would not be in the

777
00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:41,850
least bit interested I have enough

778
00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:43,290
trouble getting magicians to talk about

779
00:34:47,060 --> 00:34:45,090
that stuff as it is and you kind of

780
00:34:49,790 --> 00:34:47,070
moved down the set of protocols or

781
00:34:52,070 --> 00:34:49,800
contentions he's making and you realize

782
00:34:54,919 --> 00:34:52,080
that if there is a kind of spirit world

783
00:34:57,200 --> 00:34:54,929
that will respond to us in a reliable or

784
00:34:58,790 --> 00:34:57,210
semi reliable way then you want to back

785
00:35:01,190 --> 00:34:58,800
that into anthropology and then you want

786
00:35:02,930 --> 00:35:01,200
to go to you know the Amazon and start

787
00:35:05,780 --> 00:35:02,940
over Indonesia and start talking to

788
00:35:08,510 --> 00:35:05,790
shamans who make the exact same claims

789
00:35:09,470 --> 00:35:08,520
and see where that overlap is so this is

790
00:35:11,570 --> 00:35:09,480
kind of what I mean by it being

791
00:35:14,630 --> 00:35:11,580
interdisciplinary I don't think we need

792
00:35:16,750 --> 00:35:14,640
to go okay it turns out magics probably

793
00:35:18,710 --> 00:35:16,760
a better wider description than

794
00:35:20,210 --> 00:35:18,720
parapsychology and it's associated terms

795
00:35:22,460 --> 00:35:20,220
that doesn't mean we turn around and say

796
00:35:25,330 --> 00:35:22,470
you magician explain what's going on

797
00:35:28,130 --> 00:35:25,340
because that will be a disaster right

798
00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:28,140
interesting what else did you take away

799
00:35:32,900 --> 00:35:30,090
from your interview with Dean that you

800
00:35:34,350 --> 00:35:32,910
thought points to where this might

801
00:35:36,860 --> 00:35:34,360
eventually lead in

802
00:35:40,230 --> 00:35:36,870
the you know short to medium term I

803
00:35:41,910 --> 00:35:40,240
think it was further evidence from

804
00:35:43,470 --> 00:35:41,920
talking to biologists and

805
00:35:46,290 --> 00:35:43,480
anthropologists and the same thing that

806
00:35:49,770 --> 00:35:46,300
the the day that we have that we follow

807
00:35:51,090 --> 00:35:49,780
and skeptical has outrun and it's outrun

808
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:51,100
for a long time

809
00:35:58,500 --> 00:35:53,890
the typical models that we use to

810
00:36:00,510 --> 00:35:58,510
describe them and it is now untenable so

811
00:36:02,580 --> 00:36:00,520
for instance when starships came out got

812
00:36:04,050 --> 00:36:02,590
three separate anthropologists on three

813
00:36:05,850 --> 00:36:04,060
different continents emailing me going I

814
00:36:08,100 --> 00:36:05,860
really like this book we talk about this

815
00:36:10,050 --> 00:36:08,110
stuff quietly we do not talk about it

816
00:36:13,140 --> 00:36:10,060
publicly in a professional venue so I

817
00:36:15,380 --> 00:36:13,150
actually think the water is just too hot

818
00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:15,390
for the frogs in a bunch of disciplines

819
00:36:22,770 --> 00:36:19,690
now and we're seeing and and Dean's kind

820
00:36:24,630 --> 00:36:22,780
of personifying or exemplifying that in

821
00:36:28,190 --> 00:36:24,640
parapsychology but in other disciplines

822
00:36:31,590 --> 00:36:28,200
you're getting changes to the moronic

823
00:36:33,330 --> 00:36:31,600
19th century version of evolution that

824
00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:33,340
we still learn about in school that

825
00:36:39,240 --> 00:36:35,650
hasn't been correct for decades and and

826
00:36:41,490 --> 00:36:39,250
it involves things like agency of plants

827
00:36:43,380 --> 00:36:41,500
and methods of communication and all

828
00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:43,390
this stuff is coming up and so that's

829
00:36:48,450 --> 00:36:45,970
kind of it's very difficult at this

830
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:48,460
exact point as the edges are sort of

831
00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:51,130
fizzing away to work out what the medium

832
00:36:56,240 --> 00:36:53,050
term looks like in a funny sense the

833
00:36:58,710 --> 00:36:56,250
long term is is more predictable for us

834
00:36:59,700 --> 00:36:58,720
listeners to the show for instance but

835
00:37:03,990 --> 00:36:59,710
in the medium term

836
00:37:06,420 --> 00:37:04,000
it's it's anybody's guess I think you

837
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:06,430
know that's a great point and I really

838
00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:08,290
now for the first time in this

839
00:37:13,610 --> 00:37:10,450
conversation fully appreciate what

840
00:37:17,250 --> 00:37:13,620
you're saying about the anthropological

841
00:37:19,290 --> 00:37:17,260
connection and how that could kind of

842
00:37:21,450 --> 00:37:19,300
break that logjam in a way where they

843
00:37:23,490 --> 00:37:21,460
can point over there and go yeah but

844
00:37:25,380 --> 00:37:23,500
look at that guy over there you know and

845
00:37:27,300 --> 00:37:25,390
he's brought that into the light and I

846
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:27,310
have people that are kind of saying the

847
00:37:32,790 --> 00:37:30,010
same thing I mean right it kind of gives

848
00:37:36,870 --> 00:37:32,800
them that that ability to cross

849
00:37:41,460 --> 00:37:36,880
pollinate more freely huh it does and it

850
00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:41,470
also it pulls the tide out of Western

851
00:37:44,620 --> 00:37:43,090
academia and you see who's swimming

852
00:37:49,900 --> 00:37:44,630
races Lee

853
00:37:53,130 --> 00:37:49,910
because you don't have no credible

854
00:37:55,510 --> 00:37:53,140
anthropologist comes back from fieldwork

855
00:37:57,220 --> 00:37:55,520
without him or her having a story of

856
00:38:00,100 --> 00:37:57,230
like oh and then they did this festival

857
00:38:02,650 --> 00:38:00,110
for the dead and and my guides

858
00:38:04,270 --> 00:38:02,660
grandmother just walked she's been dead

859
00:38:05,860 --> 00:38:04,280
20 years she walked up to the fire and

860
00:38:07,690 --> 00:38:05,870
sat down and they started talking now

861
00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:07,700
they will tell you that over a drink and

862
00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:10,010
so you have to turn around and go okay

863
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:14,090
if enough if we're all saying this why

864
00:38:18,580 --> 00:38:15,850
is the presumption that oh they're

865
00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:18,590
people need to examine the underlying

866
00:38:29,890 --> 00:38:25,390
parapsychological look we've had a it's

867
00:38:31,510 --> 00:38:29,900
a 52% rather than 50% chance same the

868
00:38:33,310 --> 00:38:31,520
power structure the implicit power

869
00:38:36,790 --> 00:38:33,320
structure that is saying that we've

870
00:38:39,310 --> 00:38:36,800
discussed before that this tiny fraction

871
00:38:41,490 --> 00:38:39,320
of the population in this tiny sliver of

872
00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:41,500
history is correct and everyone else is

873
00:38:46,660 --> 00:38:44,330
deluding themselves and even if they try

874
00:38:48,610 --> 00:38:46,670
to find the words to say well no that's

875
00:38:51,700 --> 00:38:48,620
just maybe your truth or something they

876
00:38:53,770 --> 00:38:51,710
still take the teeth out of out of the

877
00:38:57,070 --> 00:38:53,780
world view and it looks like it's gonna

878
00:38:59,290 --> 00:38:57,080
be you know more it looks like there's

879
00:39:00,490 --> 00:38:59,300
so much more to learn once we learn how

880
00:39:01,390 --> 00:39:00,500
to learn those things if that makes

881
00:39:03,010 --> 00:39:01,400
sense and that's where I think

882
00:39:06,310 --> 00:39:03,020
anthropology comes in there though so

883
00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:06,320
far anyway the the least disappointing

884
00:39:11,830 --> 00:39:09,290
kind of field in better than

885
00:39:13,510 --> 00:39:11,840
parapsychology the least disappointing

886
00:39:15,970 --> 00:39:13,520
field in incorporating things like the

887
00:39:19,090 --> 00:39:15,980
reality of whatever you want to call the

888
00:39:23,020 --> 00:39:19,100
spirit world or magical powers or any of

889
00:39:25,870 --> 00:39:23,030
these kind of loaded terms they're doing

890
00:39:28,300 --> 00:39:25,880
it I don't want to say well right they

891
00:39:30,460 --> 00:39:28,310
don't not as badly as every other corner

892
00:39:32,500 --> 00:39:30,470
of the Academy so I think it's there we

893
00:39:35,070 --> 00:39:32,510
look first and and have that sort of

894
00:39:37,780 --> 00:39:35,080
slowly unpacked those foundational

895
00:39:40,330 --> 00:39:37,790
Western premises that we kind of attack

896
00:39:42,220 --> 00:39:40,340
on this show and rightly so very often

897
00:39:43,770 --> 00:39:42,230
yeah yeah that's a good point I mean

898
00:39:46,510 --> 00:39:43,780
it's almost like they're training

899
00:39:48,190 --> 00:39:46,520
prevents them from just stepping over

900
00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:48,200
the data like everyone else doesn't

901
00:39:51,910 --> 00:39:50,090
ignoring it they're like no no no we

902
00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:51,920
don't don't do that we've been taught

903
00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:53,690
over yeah we've learned our lesson we

904
00:39:56,849 --> 00:39:55,970
don't do that and let's move on and talk

905
00:40:00,150 --> 00:39:56,859
about

906
00:40:03,930 --> 00:40:00,160
you're very interesting chat with George

907
00:40:07,729 --> 00:40:03,940
Hansen of course most well-known for the

908
00:40:12,660 --> 00:40:07,739
trickster phenomenon tell us about that

909
00:40:15,089 --> 00:40:12,670
well George's book is a classic in the

910
00:40:17,519 --> 00:40:15,099
field and it's one of those press

911
00:40:19,949 --> 00:40:17,529
disciplinary ones it's been very popular

912
00:40:21,509 --> 00:40:19,959
in magic over the last 10 years as well

913
00:40:22,859 --> 00:40:21,519
because when you talking about a

914
00:40:24,930 --> 00:40:22,869
trickster phenomena you're talking about

915
00:40:26,759 --> 00:40:24,940
a folk magic conception of the devil

916
00:40:28,650 --> 00:40:26,769
you're talking about you know New

917
00:40:33,289 --> 00:40:28,660
Jersey's Mothman you're talking about

918
00:40:36,779 --> 00:40:33,299
all these different phenomena that are

919
00:40:38,819 --> 00:40:36,789
very often associated with the practice

920
00:40:40,739 --> 00:40:38,829
or exploration of magic so I've used

921
00:40:44,699 --> 00:40:40,749
some of his research in a number of my

922
00:40:48,420 --> 00:40:44,709
books because it I think as written in

923
00:40:51,059 --> 00:40:48,430
the book it sheds some light some

924
00:40:55,069 --> 00:40:51,069
directional light on on how he at least

925
00:40:58,529 --> 00:40:55,079
conceptualized the unreliability and

926
00:41:00,989 --> 00:40:58,539
Caprice of these phenomena and that

927
00:41:04,979 --> 00:41:00,999
extends to UFOs as well I mean he nailed

928
00:41:06,870 --> 00:41:04,989
it by you know you using an archetype of

929
00:41:09,650 --> 00:41:06,880
the trickster to describe it because if

930
00:41:12,630 --> 00:41:09,660
anyone has had any experience with

931
00:41:14,459 --> 00:41:12,640
poltergeists with UFOs with what have

932
00:41:16,499 --> 00:41:14,469
you there is a Caprice bordering on

933
00:41:19,699 --> 00:41:16,509
malice but it's not even malice it's

934
00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:19,709
just a different sense of humor that is

935
00:41:24,209 --> 00:41:22,690
often associated with these phenomena so

936
00:41:26,039 --> 00:41:24,219
it was it was a pleasure to talk to

937
00:41:29,189 --> 00:41:26,049
someone whose book I had read cover to

938
00:41:32,489 --> 00:41:29,199
cover a number of times so I thought he

939
00:41:35,849 --> 00:41:32,499
nailed it to interview on rune soup and

940
00:41:38,249 --> 00:41:35,859
I'm like where is this guy coming from I

941
00:41:39,930 --> 00:41:38,259
mean what you have written about his

942
00:41:42,150 --> 00:41:39,940
work what so many other people have

943
00:41:44,759 --> 00:41:42,160
written about his book what we have

944
00:41:47,609 --> 00:41:44,769
interpreted as the meaning of the

945
00:41:50,519 --> 00:41:47,619
trickster and how you just described it

946
00:41:52,769 --> 00:41:50,529
is so much more interesting than then I

947
00:41:56,160 --> 00:41:52,779
what I took away is his interpretation

948
00:41:58,140 --> 00:41:56,170
of of what the phenomenon is I mean he

949
00:42:01,289 --> 00:41:58,150
starts right out by he doesn't accept

950
00:42:06,019 --> 00:42:01,299
the the personification of the trickster

951
00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:06,029
he wants to keep it very very science II

952
00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:08,170
parapsychology comes across as this very

953
00:42:13,079 --> 00:42:10,450
you know super sigh I can't really

954
00:42:15,240 --> 00:42:13,089
say yeah and you can say that it's just

955
00:42:17,849 --> 00:42:15,250
I don't know where you were you derive

956
00:42:20,730 --> 00:42:17,859
that that kind of read of the data that

957
00:42:22,980 --> 00:42:20,740
there isn't some agency there isn't some

958
00:42:27,990 --> 00:42:22,990
entity he completely seems to be closed

959
00:42:30,260 --> 00:42:28,000
to that idea I think I think he's more

960
00:42:32,339 --> 00:42:30,270
recently closed it's my understanding or

961
00:42:35,609 --> 00:42:32,349
recollection of the conversation because

962
00:42:37,260 --> 00:42:35,619
he's only recently discovered things

963
00:42:40,170 --> 00:42:37,270
like post-structuralism that I don't

964
00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:40,180
think have a lot of value at all or at

965
00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:41,530
least a limited value in a limited

966
00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:44,650
domain and not this one so I actually

967
00:42:50,579 --> 00:42:47,650
think and it's it's one of the I guess

968
00:42:53,370 --> 00:42:50,589
it's the curse of being known for

969
00:42:56,730 --> 00:42:53,380
something right you you end you end up

970
00:42:59,640 --> 00:42:56,740
having to if you don't over determine it

971
00:43:01,829 --> 00:42:59,650
yourself the fact that everyone knows

972
00:43:03,359 --> 00:43:01,839
you for it means you kind of have to dig

973
00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:03,369
down in it and I don't think is he

974
00:43:06,540 --> 00:43:04,810
wasn't that he didn't think the

975
00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:06,550
existentialists or the phenomenologist

976
00:43:10,349 --> 00:43:08,170
had something to say about the trickster

977
00:43:13,710 --> 00:43:10,359
phenomena which i think is completely

978
00:43:15,660 --> 00:43:13,720
the opposite of correct like absolute

979
00:43:17,329 --> 00:43:15,670
180 wrong direction and he's going in

980
00:43:20,370 --> 00:43:17,339
the kind of post-structuralist

981
00:43:22,020 --> 00:43:20,380
it's all text direction alright i think

982
00:43:23,550 --> 00:43:22,030
it's a fad because i think you'll get to

983
00:43:24,780 --> 00:43:23,560
the end of it like everyone else does we

984
00:43:27,300 --> 00:43:24,790
all go through our post structuralist

985
00:43:30,089 --> 00:43:27,310
phase and and realize that this doesn't

986
00:43:31,530 --> 00:43:30,099
actually say anything this is just like

987
00:43:33,510 --> 00:43:31,540
cutting up into the newspaper and

988
00:43:36,839 --> 00:43:33,520
putting it in a wind tunnel this is not

989
00:43:39,270 --> 00:43:36,849
very useful and that I think is probably

990
00:43:41,970 --> 00:43:39,280
what's happened with the trickster

991
00:43:43,859 --> 00:43:41,980
phenomena it's it's over it was slightly

992
00:43:45,990 --> 00:43:43,869
over determined to begin with because

993
00:43:47,670 --> 00:43:46,000
one of the things that I didn't where I

994
00:43:49,890 --> 00:43:47,680
realized maybe this thesis was over

995
00:43:52,740 --> 00:43:49,900
determined was when he said it is magic

996
00:43:56,280 --> 00:43:52,750
is universally associated with the edge

997
00:43:58,530 --> 00:43:56,290
of society now that historically

998
00:44:03,030 --> 00:43:58,540
incorrect like again that's another 180

999
00:44:06,540 --> 00:44:03,040
not at all true and it's associated with

1000
00:44:11,069 --> 00:44:06,550
the upper levels of power and has been

1001
00:44:13,079 --> 00:44:11,079
since Pharaoh and so whilst there was

1002
00:44:16,829 --> 00:44:13,089
the trickster phenomena specifically

1003
00:44:18,930 --> 00:44:16,839
probably is a marginal phenomenon that

1004
00:44:20,579 --> 00:44:18,940
suggests that it can't explain all of

1005
00:44:22,420 --> 00:44:20,589
our magic but the trickster phenomenon

1006
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:22,430
is a subset within this kind of

1007
00:44:27,789 --> 00:44:24,410
magic is a wider idea and that's what I

1008
00:44:29,109 --> 00:44:27,799
give over determinist because my example

1009
00:44:31,210 --> 00:44:29,119
was Prince Philip but I could have used

1010
00:44:33,099 --> 00:44:31,220
Faro I could have used the Medicis I

1011
00:44:37,269 --> 00:44:33,109
could have used to anyone I could have

1012
00:44:40,809 --> 00:44:37,279
used the CIA as people in power being

1013
00:44:42,180 --> 00:44:40,819
interested in magic and so again it's

1014
00:44:45,309 --> 00:44:42,190
what happens when you write something

1015
00:44:47,950 --> 00:44:45,319
really original there's a risk that it

1016
00:44:49,779 --> 00:44:47,960
gets over determined maybe you're right

1017
00:44:52,930 --> 00:44:49,789
I think you're being incredibly generous

1018
00:44:55,510 --> 00:44:52,940
because if we take two of those cases

1019
00:44:56,769 --> 00:44:55,520
that you dare two of those things that

1020
00:44:58,839 --> 00:44:56,779
you just mentioned came up in the

1021
00:45:01,240 --> 00:44:58,849
interview one is Prince Philip and I was

1022
00:45:03,099 --> 00:45:01,250
like stunned he's talking about the

1023
00:45:06,010 --> 00:45:03,109
cultural elite and he's saying we need

1024
00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:06,020
to read parapsychology and you know our

1025
00:45:10,720 --> 00:45:08,690
PhDs are the cultural elite and Prince

1026
00:45:13,299 --> 00:45:10,730
Philip isn't the cultural League that's

1027
00:45:16,150 --> 00:45:13,309
an exact quote from the interview and

1028
00:45:20,620 --> 00:45:16,160
I'm like what planet are you living on

1029
00:45:22,960 --> 00:45:20,630
where you think these you know PhDs are

1030
00:45:25,299 --> 00:45:22,970
the cultural elite you know I just

1031
00:45:28,390 --> 00:45:25,309
published an interview with dr. Henry

1032
00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:28,400
Bower on the science and how science has

1033
00:45:32,950 --> 00:45:31,010
become how it's just become so corrupted

1034
00:45:34,809 --> 00:45:32,960
and untrustworthy and you know here is a

1035
00:45:39,640 --> 00:45:34,819
guy still trying to prop up that our

1036
00:45:44,079 --> 00:45:39,650
cultural elite are our cobwebbed PhDs in

1037
00:45:45,069 --> 00:45:44,089
academia yes I I don't think anyone I

1038
00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:45,079
got the impression though and it

1039
00:45:48,910 --> 00:45:47,210
actually called him on that before and

1040
00:45:51,670 --> 00:45:48,920
again that's the overdetermined part of

1041
00:45:54,130 --> 00:45:51,680
the thesis the trickster phenomenon is a

1042
00:45:55,569 --> 00:45:54,140
real thing and however we use I just use

1043
00:45:57,250 --> 00:45:55,579
the word trickster phenomenon and reel

1044
00:45:59,589 --> 00:45:57,260
in the one sentence so let's just leave

1045
00:46:02,200 --> 00:45:59,599
that aside but whatever it is it's a

1046
00:46:03,339 --> 00:46:02,210
real thing it just don't explains

1047
00:46:05,230 --> 00:46:03,349
everything and I don't think anyone's

1048
00:46:09,130 --> 00:46:05,240
ever said to him Prince Philip has had a

1049
00:46:13,450 --> 00:46:09,140
lifelong interest in seances crop

1050
00:46:19,569 --> 00:46:13,460
circles UFOs and his wife's face is on

1051
00:46:23,140 --> 00:46:19,579
the money well you know and the other

1052
00:46:25,839 --> 00:46:23,150
thing that I think in a way links the

1053
00:46:28,720 --> 00:46:25,849
interview with Hanson and Dean Radin in

1054
00:46:32,230 --> 00:46:28,730
a way that was hard for me to look past

1055
00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:32,240
is this they're completely oblivious to

1056
00:46:39,400 --> 00:46:36,410
the conspiratorial part of thing

1057
00:46:42,039 --> 00:46:39,410
and you like you mentioned the CIA in

1058
00:46:43,809 --> 00:46:42,049
the interview with Hanson I love this

1059
00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:43,819
when he goes let me get the exact quote

1060
00:46:51,370 --> 00:46:47,450
you're talking about parapsychology and

1061
00:46:53,920 --> 00:46:51,380
how there has been this long established

1062
00:46:56,499 --> 00:46:53,930
connection between the intelligence

1063
00:46:58,239 --> 00:46:56,509
community and parapsychology but you

1064
00:47:00,880 --> 00:46:58,249
kind of teed it up as a possible

1065
00:47:02,410 --> 00:47:00,890
connection and he said no you don't have

1066
00:47:04,920 --> 00:47:02,420
to posit a connection with the

1067
00:47:07,859 --> 00:47:04,930
intelligence community and it's like

1068
00:47:12,999 --> 00:47:07,869
yeah you told because I mean it's like

1069
00:47:14,079 --> 00:47:13,009
it's like I wanted to see if like you

1070
00:47:16,089 --> 00:47:14,089
know how it is when you just have an

1071
00:47:18,640 --> 00:47:16,099
hour and I'm like a woman do I go in

1072
00:47:21,099 --> 00:47:18,650
this direction and that was an emphatic

1073
00:47:23,710 --> 00:47:21,109
no but it was a weird emphatic no in the

1074
00:47:26,019 --> 00:47:23,720
sense that he probably realizes it is

1075
00:47:29,019 --> 00:47:26,029
and I think personally and

1076
00:47:30,969 --> 00:47:29,029
professionally realizes it is because I

1077
00:47:34,359 --> 00:47:30,979
I wanted to go in two directions like

1078
00:47:37,779 --> 00:47:34,369
look false memory syndrome James Randi

1079
00:47:38,979 --> 00:47:37,789
all this stuff just backends into the

1080
00:47:41,890 --> 00:47:38,989
military what are you talking about

1081
00:47:43,900 --> 00:47:41,900
exactly exactly and I'll tell you the

1082
00:47:47,380 --> 00:47:43,910
connection I saw with the Dean Radin

1083
00:47:49,900 --> 00:47:47,390
interview who is much more plugged in

1084
00:47:53,049 --> 00:47:49,910
and tuned in and a more open-minded guy

1085
00:47:54,670 --> 00:47:53,059
released from the way I know him but you

1086
00:47:56,559 --> 00:47:54,680
know they get to talking this is in his

1087
00:47:59,049 --> 00:47:56,569
interview with Rick Archer on bat gap

1088
00:48:00,940 --> 00:47:59,059
and they're talking about Steven

1089
00:48:03,609 --> 00:48:00,950
Spielberg and they say wow you know that

1090
00:48:08,529 --> 00:48:03,619
guy he's so crazy can really tap into

1091
00:48:12,039 --> 00:48:08,539
the collective Encounters of the Third

1092
00:48:15,400 --> 00:48:12,049
Kind and et and I'm like guys this has

1093
00:48:17,709 --> 00:48:15,410
been outed that the intelligence / CIA

1094
00:48:20,140 --> 00:48:17,719
intelligence community's connection and

1095
00:48:23,170 --> 00:48:20,150
shaping culture and in most more

1096
00:48:26,079 --> 00:48:23,180
specifically in really braiding these

1097
00:48:29,079 --> 00:48:26,089
movies in deciding which movies get the

1098
00:48:31,959 --> 00:48:29,089
content is has been you know so outed

1099
00:48:33,759 --> 00:48:31,969
that to kind of Musa bout how you know

1100
00:48:36,130 --> 00:48:33,769
that might have occurred is is just

1101
00:48:38,019 --> 00:48:36,140
stunning in a way and it makes you in

1102
00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:38,029
the same way it makes you wonder are

1103
00:48:45,789 --> 00:48:41,450
they completely ignoring that what is

1104
00:48:49,960 --> 00:48:45,799
now well established and and necessary

1105
00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:49,970
part of the equation that you know this

1106
00:48:55,150 --> 00:48:52,010
andddd consciousness realm and how our

1107
00:48:59,920 --> 00:48:55,160
government has been playing there for as

1108
00:49:01,480 --> 00:48:59,930
long as they could they are and it's

1109
00:49:04,750 --> 00:49:01,490
getting I mean you know present company

1110
00:49:07,900 --> 00:49:04,760
excepted everyone has incomplete world

1111
00:49:09,820 --> 00:49:07,910
views not us obviously we're amazing but

1112
00:49:12,070 --> 00:49:09,830
you just and this is kind of where I

1113
00:49:13,390 --> 00:49:12,080
think in the medium term it's just going

1114
00:49:15,520 --> 00:49:13,400
to be messy because there are some

1115
00:49:17,620 --> 00:49:15,530
people we just mentioned dr. Kuiper for

1116
00:49:22,510 --> 00:49:17,630
instance who are amazing and intelligent

1117
00:49:24,640 --> 00:49:22,520
and constitutionally unable to to see

1118
00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:24,650
this stuff without I presume like you

1119
00:49:30,070 --> 00:49:28,130
know their worlds melting and that just

1120
00:49:31,990 --> 00:49:30,080
is how it is I don't think anyway

1121
00:49:32,470 --> 00:49:32,000
there's sort of like no clean water in

1122
00:49:34,270 --> 00:49:32,480
the desert

1123
00:49:35,560 --> 00:49:34,280
at this point in time but it's it's

1124
00:49:39,099 --> 00:49:35,570
getting so that when people say

1125
00:49:40,960 --> 00:49:39,109
something like that and it's um it's one

1126
00:49:42,250 --> 00:49:40,970
of the reasons it's no shade but like

1127
00:49:43,750 --> 00:49:42,260
one of the reasons we're back up is in

1128
00:49:45,580 --> 00:49:43,760
my jam is that kind of stuff where

1129
00:49:48,580 --> 00:49:45,590
you'll just breeze past something that's

1130
00:49:54,130 --> 00:49:48,590
just flat-out denialism and it colors

1131
00:49:55,900 --> 00:49:54,140
for me it makes me relativize the other

1132
00:49:58,000 --> 00:49:55,910
statements or all research because it's

1133
00:50:00,849 --> 00:49:58,010
gotten so here we are two-thirds of the

1134
00:50:03,940 --> 00:50:00,859
way through 2017 if you're unaware of

1135
00:50:06,730 --> 00:50:03,950
this giant component of a field in which

1136
00:50:11,140 --> 00:50:06,740
you allegedly work then I have to have

1137
00:50:13,030 --> 00:50:11,150
some questions about your potentially

1138
00:50:16,050 --> 00:50:13,040
even competence in in actually really

1139
00:50:18,609 --> 00:50:16,060
understanding the discourse because it's

1140
00:50:20,109 --> 00:50:18,619
it is as we know a necessary component

1141
00:50:21,400 --> 00:50:20,119
but I don't think we can do anything

1142
00:50:25,030 --> 00:50:21,410
about it I just think we can kind of go

1143
00:50:26,560 --> 00:50:25,040
guys I can tell you with every

1144
00:50:28,810 --> 00:50:26,570
confidence that there is something to it

1145
00:50:30,910 --> 00:50:28,820
I don't know what it is and I don't

1146
00:50:33,460 --> 00:50:30,920
think the next best step forward is to

1147
00:50:34,839 --> 00:50:33,470
pretend it's not there you have the only

1148
00:50:36,730 --> 00:50:34,849
problem with that is you'd have to

1149
00:50:39,099 --> 00:50:36,740
spread a little bit of that over Dean's

1150
00:50:42,099 --> 00:50:39,109
way as well cuz Dean's push over that as

1151
00:50:45,640 --> 00:50:42,109
well and also falling for the you know

1152
00:50:46,450 --> 00:50:45,650
that his progressive politics which are

1153
00:50:48,010 --> 00:50:46,460
fine

1154
00:50:53,579 --> 00:50:48,020
but I mean they're completely oblivious

1155
00:50:55,260 --> 00:50:53,589
to any kind of meta control or

1156
00:50:58,210 --> 00:50:55,270
counterbalancing force

1157
00:51:01,150 --> 00:50:58,220
it's called globalism or anything like

1158
00:51:03,250 --> 00:51:01,160
that is just completely you know off the

1159
00:51:06,490 --> 00:51:03,260
table it's it's it's kind

1160
00:51:08,590 --> 00:51:06,500
yeah and I think so I think that's

1161
00:51:10,210 --> 00:51:08,600
definitely there's definitely a fair

1162
00:51:14,170 --> 00:51:10,220
statement to make no question and I do

1163
00:51:15,870 --> 00:51:14,180
think it has it falls to other people

1164
00:51:20,380 --> 00:51:15,880
potentially more interdisciplinary

1165
00:51:21,609 --> 00:51:20,390
loudmouths like us to to kind of stitch

1166
00:51:23,349 --> 00:51:21,619
those things together I don't know where

1167
00:51:26,620 --> 00:51:23,359
it goes I know it's a factor that needs

1168
00:51:28,720 --> 00:51:26,630
to be folded in to how we think about

1169
00:51:30,970 --> 00:51:28,730
this stuff and if they weren't folded in

1170
00:51:32,710 --> 00:51:30,980
then then we will and will hand it off

1171
00:51:34,690 --> 00:51:32,720
to someone else and we'll get through

1172
00:51:36,910 --> 00:51:34,700
this kind of patchy medium term but I

1173
00:51:39,820 --> 00:51:36,920
agree completely and I think it's I

1174
00:51:44,020 --> 00:51:39,830
think the next few steps well the next

1175
00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:44,030
few years we'll see people at least hand

1176
00:51:46,630 --> 00:51:45,410
way because you don't do quite book kind

1177
00:51:48,400 --> 00:51:46,640
of hand waves at the beginning of the

1178
00:51:51,700 --> 00:51:48,410
books going like oh and there is a you

1179
00:51:52,810 --> 00:51:51,710
know long term involvement between the

1180
00:51:55,470 --> 00:51:52,820
deep state and whatever the UFO

1181
00:51:59,530 --> 00:51:55,480
phenomenon is now on with the story but

1182
00:52:02,020 --> 00:51:59,540
and I think you're gonna see much like I

1183
00:52:03,250 --> 00:52:02,030
mean you rightly call in for that but I

1184
00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:03,260
think you're gonna see more of that kind

1185
00:52:07,359 --> 00:52:05,450
of stuff and it's kind of like when

1186
00:52:09,220 --> 00:52:07,369
anthropologists using the n-word or when

1187
00:52:12,670 --> 00:52:09,230
Dean gets up on stage and uses them what

1188
00:52:16,510 --> 00:52:12,680
I think the way through this is to make

1189
00:52:18,099 --> 00:52:16,520
it okay to admit that that stuff is

1190
00:52:19,990 --> 00:52:18,109
there rather than pretend it's not

1191
00:52:21,849 --> 00:52:20,000
rather than kind of everyone let's get

1192
00:52:26,530 --> 00:52:21,859
together and you know have a definitive

1193
00:52:30,430 --> 00:52:26,540
statement on this let's just let it let

1194
00:52:32,920 --> 00:52:30,440
the ice crack and and and so on great

1195
00:52:35,620 --> 00:52:32,930
okay so there's a lot of interesting

1196
00:52:37,300 --> 00:52:35,630
stuff there that you've brought out in

1197
00:52:39,900 --> 00:52:37,310
terms of the future of parapsychology I

1198
00:52:43,450 --> 00:52:39,910
feel tempted to just kind of leave that

1199
00:52:46,630 --> 00:52:43,460
there for a minute because I wanted to

1200
00:52:49,060 --> 00:52:46,640
spend a few minutes talking about UFO

1201
00:52:50,920 --> 00:52:49,070
research and might as well tee it up the

1202
00:52:53,920 --> 00:52:50,930
same way you know the future of UFO

1203
00:52:56,200 --> 00:52:53,930
research we've emailed back and forth

1204
00:52:58,240 --> 00:52:56,210
about this series of interviews I think

1205
00:53:00,670 --> 00:52:58,250
pretty remarkable interviews the jock

1206
00:53:02,320 --> 00:53:00,680
fillet has given one it gave on skeptic

1207
00:53:03,910 --> 00:53:02,330
oh but he did one on para cast and he

1208
00:53:05,440 --> 00:53:03,920
didn't want to grow America or the three

1209
00:53:08,140 --> 00:53:05,450
that I've listened to there probably

1210
00:53:11,380 --> 00:53:08,150
been other ones out there and some

1211
00:53:14,650 --> 00:53:11,390
really really interesting stuff came out

1212
00:53:17,140 --> 00:53:14,660
in those interviews particularly I think

1213
00:53:19,230 --> 00:53:17,150
of interest to like you

1214
00:53:22,170 --> 00:53:19,240
I because of our interest in

1215
00:53:25,839 --> 00:53:22,180
consciousness and the connection between

1216
00:53:28,650 --> 00:53:25,849
consciousness and the UFO thing that

1217
00:53:31,120 --> 00:53:28,660
it's been my contention for the last

1218
00:53:33,519 --> 00:53:31,130
couple of years and like my interview

1219
00:53:35,859 --> 00:53:33,529
with Robbie Gramm and Robert that got a

1220
00:53:39,609 --> 00:53:35,869
little bit he didn't lay and like that

1221
00:53:42,039 --> 00:53:39,619
the the UFO people have misunderstood

1222
00:53:43,359 --> 00:53:42,049
really the whole consciousness thing I

1223
00:53:46,359 --> 00:53:43,369
mean it's like any you know new toy

1224
00:53:47,859 --> 00:53:46,369
they've kind of taken it out and yep ran

1225
00:53:49,329 --> 00:53:47,869
it around so much that they got a the

1226
00:53:52,960 --> 00:53:49,339
wheels fall off and they don't even

1227
00:53:55,809 --> 00:53:52,970
recognize that so what's a hundred

1228
00:53:57,400 --> 00:53:55,819
percent tell us what did you make what

1229
00:53:59,349 --> 00:53:57,410
do you make of what's going on there and

1230
00:54:03,339 --> 00:53:59,359
with this latest round of interviews

1231
00:54:05,559 --> 00:54:03,349
from Jacques Vallee I've only heard the

1232
00:54:07,420 --> 00:54:05,569
one with you of course but I read the

1233
00:54:11,140 --> 00:54:07,430
journals when he self-published him on

1234
00:54:13,180 --> 00:54:11,150
Lulu the day they came out and I found

1235
00:54:14,799 --> 00:54:13,190
them as flooring band as you did like

1236
00:54:16,210 --> 00:54:14,809
everything in the introduction I just

1237
00:54:17,950 --> 00:54:16,220
love that kind of stuff he's old now

1238
00:54:19,900 --> 00:54:17,960
he's done all this amazing thing so he's

1239
00:54:23,440 --> 00:54:19,910
it was opening up with the introduction

1240
00:54:26,380 --> 00:54:23,450
and by the way this is going on but I've

1241
00:54:28,539 --> 00:54:26,390
been a huge ballet fan all along I think

1242
00:54:29,620 --> 00:54:28,549
and you know it's kind of like where we

1243
00:54:31,450 --> 00:54:29,630
were talking about the risk with

1244
00:54:34,660 --> 00:54:31,460
parapsychology if they start using the M

1245
00:54:36,099 --> 00:54:34,670
word is that it will do what UFO or you

1246
00:54:39,160 --> 00:54:36,109
follow juice done over the last five

1247
00:54:41,109 --> 00:54:39,170
years which is just spin its wheels what

1248
00:54:43,170 --> 00:54:41,119
you what happens when you say oh it's a

1249
00:54:48,339 --> 00:54:43,180
consciousness effect is that you are

1250
00:54:50,589 --> 00:54:48,349
freed from examining actual data or

1251
00:54:53,470 --> 00:54:50,599
doing any kind of meta analysis because

1252
00:54:56,529 --> 00:54:53,480
anything can be anything and it's it

1253
00:54:58,539 --> 00:54:56,539
fell out of funny enough dr. stress

1254
00:55:01,059 --> 00:54:58,549
wounds DMT research is how I understand

1255
00:55:03,640 --> 00:55:01,069
what happened to you follow gee there

1256
00:55:05,200 --> 00:55:03,650
was about ten years ago when the

1257
00:55:07,000 --> 00:55:05,210
distress when the spirit molecule stuff

1258
00:55:10,059 --> 00:55:07,010
ended up in other alternative

1259
00:55:13,359 --> 00:55:10,069
researchers material after that we just

1260
00:55:15,370 --> 00:55:13,369
got this kind of full magic in a

1261
00:55:17,740 --> 00:55:15,380
derogatory sense a version of ufology

1262
00:55:21,099 --> 00:55:17,750
that I think is hopefully winding back

1263
00:55:23,620 --> 00:55:21,109
because absolutely it looks for most of

1264
00:55:27,190 --> 00:55:23,630
the time like what dr. Skinner thinks

1265
00:55:29,140 --> 00:55:27,200
the spirits are but sometimes sometimes

1266
00:55:31,989 --> 00:55:29,150
it isn't sometimes there are ruins on

1267
00:55:34,120 --> 00:55:31,999
and and you can't let that go because

1268
00:55:35,829 --> 00:55:34,130
it's just cleaner to say no it's all the

1269
00:55:38,739 --> 00:55:35,839
conscious which is fine except they were

1270
00:55:41,499 --> 00:55:38,749
ruins on Mars no completely agree with

1271
00:55:45,489 --> 00:55:41,509
you and and so let me kind of go over

1272
00:55:47,200 --> 00:55:45,499
the highlights of what I heard ela

1273
00:55:48,849 --> 00:55:47,210
saying in this series of interviews and

1274
00:55:51,970 --> 00:55:48,859
then maybe we can chat about him a

1275
00:55:55,359 --> 00:55:51,980
little bit because he comes out and says

1276
00:55:58,029 --> 00:55:55,369
to your point exactly that one he's very

1277
00:56:01,180 --> 00:55:58,039
much into material science right so he's

1278
00:56:04,749 --> 00:56:01,190
helping researchers get you know aerial

1279
00:56:06,430 --> 00:56:04,759
photos that might reveal more landing or

1280
00:56:08,680 --> 00:56:06,440
trace elements he's helping with mass

1281
00:56:12,220 --> 00:56:08,690
spectrometers and all this kind of stuff

1282
00:56:13,749 --> 00:56:12,230
that again you know people I think it's

1283
00:56:15,130 --> 00:56:13,759
gonna be interesting to see the fallout

1284
00:56:17,230 --> 00:56:15,140
from these series of interviews because

1285
00:56:19,359 --> 00:56:17,240
it's really it should if people are

1286
00:56:21,700 --> 00:56:19,369
honest should knock a lot of these UFO

1287
00:56:23,499 --> 00:56:21,710
researchers on their heels and say hey

1288
00:56:26,049 --> 00:56:23,509
wait a minute what have I been spinning

1289
00:56:28,029 --> 00:56:26,059
about this consciousness stuff here's a

1290
00:56:31,450 --> 00:56:28,039
guy who's looking at photos who's

1291
00:56:34,420 --> 00:56:31,460
looking at you know trace elements left

1292
00:56:37,989 --> 00:56:34,430
behind you know and then he's also very

1293
00:56:40,870 --> 00:56:37,999
open to the UFO the UF ology narrative

1294
00:56:43,329 --> 00:56:40,880
the kind of ancient aliens kind of thing

1295
00:56:46,559 --> 00:56:43,339
he's talking you know Cicero and he saw

1296
00:56:49,210 --> 00:56:46,569
all day oh that's relevant he's open to

1297
00:56:49,900 --> 00:56:49,220
Roswell you know again people are like

1298
00:56:51,970 --> 00:56:49,910
hahaha

1299
00:56:55,960 --> 00:56:51,980
Roswell and he goes well you know

1300
00:56:57,970 --> 00:56:55,970
Roswell the it has been the waters have

1301
00:56:59,410 --> 00:56:57,980
been muddied but we must assume it's

1302
00:57:01,479 --> 00:56:59,420
true because there's other cases of

1303
00:57:03,400 --> 00:57:01,489
crash landing reports boom check that

1304
00:57:05,620 --> 00:57:03,410
one off the list and then he comes to

1305
00:57:07,989 --> 00:57:05,630
the actual sightings and this to me

1306
00:57:10,509 --> 00:57:07,999
typifies the whole series of interviews

1307
00:57:11,829 --> 00:57:10,519
and I think it was on grammaire eeka but

1308
00:57:14,589 --> 00:57:11,839
he goes you know they're kind of hammer

1309
00:57:16,059 --> 00:57:14,599
I'm going what's new in 40 years they're

1310
00:57:17,859 --> 00:57:16,069
kind of being devil's advocate you know

1311
00:57:19,390 --> 00:57:17,869
because this is a good interview but

1312
00:57:20,650 --> 00:57:19,400
they go you know what's new and they're

1313
00:57:22,180 --> 00:57:20,660
like yeah I get it you know that's a

1314
00:57:25,749 --> 00:57:22,190
fair question what's new and he goes

1315
00:57:27,519 --> 00:57:25,759
we'll look at MUFON he goes forty years

1316
00:57:29,829 --> 00:57:27,529
the student they're still doing the same

1317
00:57:31,989 --> 00:57:29,839
thing and everyone's chuckles haha hi

1318
00:57:34,390 --> 00:57:31,999
everyone laughs and then he paused eCos

1319
00:57:35,049 --> 00:57:34,400
and that's exactly what they should be

1320
00:57:37,329 --> 00:57:35,059
doing

1321
00:57:39,009 --> 00:57:37,339
they should be gathering these reports

1322
00:57:41,019 --> 00:57:39,019
in the same way they should be

1323
00:57:42,530 --> 00:57:41,029
collecting the data in the same way and

1324
00:57:46,490 --> 00:57:42,540
it was like

1325
00:57:48,350 --> 00:57:46,500
just exactly I guess what I'm talking

1326
00:57:49,430 --> 00:57:48,360
about in terms of I think in some

1327
00:57:52,340 --> 00:57:49,440
fundamental ways

1328
00:57:55,150 --> 00:57:52,350
he's been misunderstood because people

1329
00:57:57,380 --> 00:57:55,160
have taken some very important and

1330
00:58:00,050 --> 00:57:57,390
revolutionary ideas that he'd had and

1331
00:58:04,130 --> 00:58:00,060
they've kind of run with them a little

1332
00:58:05,510 --> 00:58:04,140
bit past where he's run with them yeah

1333
00:58:08,690 --> 00:58:05,520
and that's been happening to him for

1334
00:58:10,160 --> 00:58:08,700
decades so you kind of you can you get

1335
00:58:12,290 --> 00:58:10,170
that if he read his forbidden science

1336
00:58:13,580 --> 00:58:12,300
books as well but when he's initially

1337
00:58:16,580 --> 00:58:13,590
positing because he's sort of a

1338
00:58:19,070 --> 00:58:16,590
Rosicrucian and a spiritual man as well

1339
00:58:22,670 --> 00:58:19,080
as being you know an angel investor and

1340
00:58:24,260 --> 00:58:22,680
a astrophysicist and a UFO researcher so

1341
00:58:26,600 --> 00:58:24,270
is it you know very much a Renaissance

1342
00:58:27,980 --> 00:58:26,610
type person but even in their late 60s

1343
00:58:30,800 --> 00:58:27,990
and 70s when he said there's a

1344
00:58:32,510 --> 00:58:30,810
consciousness component to this people

1345
00:58:34,040 --> 00:58:32,520
said oh so you think they're like

1346
00:58:35,840 --> 00:58:34,050
they're making it up or they imagine it

1347
00:58:38,570 --> 00:58:35,850
or it's a hallucination he's like no the

1348
00:58:41,150 --> 00:58:38,580
phenomena are real they show up and

1349
00:58:42,650 --> 00:58:41,160
radar they land they hit cause radiation

1350
00:58:43,880 --> 00:58:42,660
effects I'm saying there's a

1351
00:58:46,550 --> 00:58:43,890
consciousness component to it and I

1352
00:58:48,470 --> 00:58:46,560
think people miss the know the you know

1353
00:58:50,750 --> 00:58:48,480
he's some of his favorite ones that this

1354
00:58:52,640 --> 00:58:50,760
sort of giant craft that were chased

1355
00:58:54,920 --> 00:58:52,650
over Belgium and he gave that I didn't

1356
00:58:58,610 --> 00:58:54,930
imagine it didn't come out of my

1357
00:59:02,000 --> 00:58:58,620
head and that I think is where people

1358
00:59:03,680 --> 00:59:02,010
have maybe I did not deliberately

1359
00:59:05,330 --> 00:59:03,690
misinterpreted him but kind of breezed

1360
00:59:07,940 --> 00:59:05,340
over it because they wanted to write a

1361
00:59:10,220 --> 00:59:07,950
book about fairies or Bigfoot or

1362
00:59:12,890 --> 00:59:10,230
something and and kind of bundle it all

1363
00:59:14,750 --> 00:59:12,900
together and and it's my kind of problem

1364
00:59:17,000 --> 00:59:14,760
with any of these sort of monist

1365
00:59:19,730 --> 00:59:17,010
interpretations if you make it

1366
00:59:23,360 --> 00:59:19,740
everything you make it nothing right

1367
00:59:27,050 --> 00:59:23,370
good point well Gordon what else is

1368
00:59:28,790 --> 00:59:27,060
going on with you and rune soup you have

1369
00:59:31,840 --> 00:59:28,800
so much going on but you really ought to

1370
00:59:34,070 --> 00:59:31,850
tell people about what's been happening

1371
00:59:35,570 --> 00:59:34,080
you have a bunch of other very

1372
00:59:38,750 --> 00:59:35,580
interesting interviews that have gone up

1373
00:59:42,650 --> 00:59:38,760
but you're also working on some products

1374
00:59:45,290 --> 00:59:42,660
and some projects so fill us in yes so

1375
00:59:47,000 --> 00:59:45,300
the website has a premium member

1376
00:59:50,680 --> 00:59:47,010
component and it has a whole bunch of

1377
00:59:53,380 --> 00:59:50,690
stuff we do weekly video q and A's and

1378
00:59:54,999 --> 00:59:53,390
different kind of group projects you

1379
00:59:56,859 --> 00:59:55,009
know remote viewing group prayer stuff

1380
00:59:58,539 --> 00:59:56,869
that kind of thing and each quarter

1381
01:00:00,130 --> 00:59:58,549
there's also a course that is either on

1382
01:00:03,130 --> 01:00:00,140
something like sigil magic or grimoire

1383
01:00:04,989 --> 01:00:03,140
magic and and so on and that's yeah it's

1384
01:00:07,329 --> 01:00:04,999
going really well people are responding

1385
01:00:09,789 --> 01:00:07,339
to it that's in the premium component

1386
01:00:12,819 --> 01:00:09,799
the the website and the the podcasts are

1387
01:00:14,469 --> 01:00:12,829
all always completely free and it's

1388
01:00:18,700 --> 01:00:14,479
great as you know it's a lot of work but

1389
01:00:21,160 --> 01:00:18,710
it's just really fun fantastic do you

1390
01:00:24,130 --> 01:00:21,170
have any kind of word on what's been

1391
01:00:25,329 --> 01:00:24,140
going on with some of the experiments

1392
01:00:27,099 --> 01:00:25,339
you've been running I mean somewhat

1393
01:00:29,650 --> 01:00:27,109
ad-hoc but I like the way you've tried

1394
01:00:31,479 --> 01:00:29,660
to put some reasonable controls on there

1395
01:00:35,440 --> 01:00:31,489
and I think there's so much opportunity

1396
01:00:37,029 --> 01:00:35,450
for making progress in that way I mean

1397
01:00:39,700 --> 01:00:37,039
some of these experiments with some just

1398
01:00:41,650 --> 01:00:39,710
reasonable common-sense controls can

1399
01:00:43,059 --> 01:00:41,660
yield some pretty interesting results

1400
01:00:45,339 --> 01:00:43,069
but I don't know where you're at with

1401
01:00:48,279 --> 01:00:45,349
some of those well that's kind of the

1402
01:00:49,809 --> 01:00:48,289
priorities for q4 and we're going to be

1403
01:00:53,109 --> 01:00:49,819
looking at them with some more rigor so

1404
01:00:55,089 --> 01:00:53,119
it's been because it's not a teaching

1405
01:00:57,489 --> 01:00:55,099
modality right it's a it's a collection

1406
01:00:58,989 --> 01:00:57,499
of people who were serious about but

1407
01:01:01,930 --> 01:00:58,999
seriously interested in this kind of

1408
01:01:03,729 --> 01:01:01,940
stuff so I don't actually know what's

1409
01:01:06,249 --> 01:01:03,739
going to happen and we kind of share it

1410
01:01:09,190 --> 01:01:06,259
going let's try this and people have had

1411
01:01:11,259 --> 01:01:09,200
some really really profound it's

1412
01:01:13,779 --> 01:01:11,269
anecdotal stuff but you know we both

1413
01:01:16,779 --> 01:01:13,789
have no problem with a word if it's used

1414
01:01:20,680 --> 01:01:16,789
correctly there's been some really

1415
01:01:22,809 --> 01:01:20,690
really profound responses and changes in

1416
01:01:26,319 --> 01:01:22,819
people's lives and circumstances and so

1417
01:01:28,150 --> 01:01:26,329
on and in q4 I hope that we can put sort

1418
01:01:30,039 --> 01:01:28,160
of some more rigor around it now that

1419
01:01:32,229 --> 01:01:30,049
there are you know now that people's

1420
01:01:34,839 --> 01:01:32,239
kind of feed it under the desk so to

1421
01:01:37,690 --> 01:01:34,849
speak well great I certainly encourage

1422
01:01:39,190 --> 01:01:37,700
folks to check out all the great

1423
01:01:41,440 --> 01:01:39,200
interviews we're doing on rune soup

1424
01:01:45,099 --> 01:01:41,450
lately are terrific and the other stuff

1425
01:01:46,630 --> 01:01:45,109
I am a premium member in like hearing

1426
01:01:49,029 --> 01:01:46,640
about all that stuff and saying what's

1427
01:01:52,509 --> 01:01:49,039
going on so certainly wish you the best

1428
01:01:54,249 --> 01:01:52,519
of luck with all of that thanks for

1429
01:01:56,319 --> 01:01:54,259
coming back on and talking about the

1430
01:01:58,299 --> 01:01:56,329
future of parapsychology who the hell

1431
01:02:01,150 --> 01:01:58,309
else is going to plot the future of

1432
01:02:03,009 --> 01:02:01,160
parapsychology than this magician down

1433
01:02:04,130 --> 01:02:03,019
there and Tasmania soon to be in

1434
01:02:06,350 --> 01:02:04,140
Tasmania

1435
01:02:08,600 --> 01:02:06,360
yeah well if it's not me it's you

1436
01:02:14,030 --> 01:02:08,610
definitely so I look to you Alex

1437
01:02:15,470 --> 01:02:14,040
okay now we're really in trouble thanks

1438
01:02:17,750 --> 01:02:15,480
again to Gordon white for joining me

1439
01:02:19,940 --> 01:02:17,760
today on skeptic oak one question I

1440
01:02:21,500 --> 01:02:19,950
guess I T up from this interview and

1441
01:02:25,220 --> 01:02:21,510
it's the big one the one I asked at the

1442
01:02:28,700 --> 01:02:25,230
beginning is parapsychology going

1443
01:02:31,040 --> 01:02:28,710
through this foundational change that we

1444
01:02:33,800 --> 01:02:31,050
alluded to in this show dean Raiden's

1445
01:02:37,250 --> 01:02:33,810
talked about magic and spirit and

1446
01:02:40,550 --> 01:02:37,260
broadening his investigation of psy in

1447
01:02:44,030 --> 01:02:40,560
that way is that a major sea change or

1448
01:02:46,520 --> 01:02:44,040
are we making too much out of a guy who

1449
01:02:48,680 --> 01:02:46,530
just wrote another book and this time he

1450
01:02:51,650 --> 01:02:48,690
focused on magic I think you might have

1451
01:02:53,660 --> 01:02:51,660
an idea where I tend to lean on that but

1452
01:02:55,310 --> 01:02:53,670
of course the purpose of throwing this

1453
01:02:57,620 --> 01:02:55,320
question out there is to get your

1454
01:02:59,660 --> 01:02:57,630
opinion and I'd very much like to hear

1455
01:03:05,120 --> 01:02:59,670
your opinion the place to give it is at

1456
01:03:07,510 --> 01:03:05,130
skeptic Oh calm ske pti k Oh calm where

1457
01:03:10,550 --> 01:03:07,520
you can listen to all the previous shows

1458
01:03:12,710 --> 01:03:10,560
360 or whatever of them all for free no

1459
01:03:15,470 --> 01:03:12,720
pay wall no advertising just there for

1460
01:03:17,270 --> 01:03:15,480
you to enjoy and hopefully share with

1461
01:03:19,910 --> 01:03:17,280
other people I know a lot of you do that

1462
01:03:21,980 --> 01:03:19,920
we've had a lot of new listeners coming

1463
01:03:25,490 --> 01:03:21,990
on board lately this shows been around

1464
01:03:28,370 --> 01:03:25,500
for a long time but things change people

1465
01:03:30,620 --> 01:03:28,380
come and go so if you're a longtime

1466
01:03:33,080 --> 01:03:30,630
listener and you haven't recommended the

1467
01:03:35,690 --> 01:03:33,090
show to someone in a long time consider

1468
01:03:38,060 --> 01:03:35,700
doing so post about it write about it do

1469
01:03:41,480 --> 01:03:38,070
whatever you have to I love to bring new

1470
01:03:44,090 --> 01:03:41,490
people into this skeptical community in

1471
01:03:46,850 --> 01:03:44,100
this and this thought group that we have

1472
01:03:48,860 --> 01:03:46,860
going on one other thing of kind of

1473
01:03:51,140 --> 01:03:48,870
skeptical business if you're out there

1474
01:03:54,650 --> 01:03:51,150
and if you're a listener to this show

1475
01:03:57,050 --> 01:03:54,660
and you want to help the show or look

1476
01:03:59,800 --> 01:03:57,060
for more opportunities to be involved

1477
01:04:02,570 --> 01:03:59,810
with the show please let me know I am

1478
01:04:05,180 --> 01:04:02,580
potentially looking for that kind of

1479
01:04:06,680 --> 01:04:05,190
help I'm not sure what that means we'll

1480
01:04:10,430 --> 01:04:06,690
just throw it out there to the universe

1481
01:04:13,070 --> 01:04:10,440
and see what turns up and kind of take

1482
01:04:14,660 --> 01:04:13,080
it from there but if you feel so

1483
01:04:17,000 --> 01:04:14,670
inclined that means you're the right

1484
01:04:17,570 --> 01:04:17,010
person and please do send me an email

1485
01:04:19,760 --> 01:04:17,580
it's

1486
01:04:22,040 --> 01:04:19,770
easy to find my email or find me on

1487
01:04:24,620 --> 01:04:22,050
Facebook you'll find me anyways I have a

1488
01:04:27,500 --> 01:04:24,630
number of interesting shows coming up

1489
01:04:29,810 --> 01:04:27,510
fast and furious they're coming out a

1490
01:04:31,580 --> 01:04:29,820
little bit faster than I have the

1491
01:04:34,850 --> 01:04:31,590
ability to turn them out and maintain

1492
01:04:38,570 --> 01:04:34,860
kind of a normal phony-baloney life like

1493
01:04:42,800 --> 01:04:38,580
I like to do so we'll see how I balance

1494
01:04:46,100 --> 01:04:42,810
all of that but until then do take care

1495
01:04:46,110 --> 01:05:00,940
[Music]

1496
01:05:05,630 --> 01:05:03,710
so thanks for watching this video if it

1497
01:05:08,210 --> 01:05:05,640
wasn't really a video but just an audio

1498
01:05:09,800 --> 01:05:08,220
stored as a video well I apologize but

1499
01:05:11,720 --> 01:05:09,810
there's more videos out there as well

1500
01:05:13,550 --> 01:05:11,730
but please check out the skeptic Oh

1501
01:05:14,900 --> 01:05:13,560
website you can see it here we cover a

1502
01:05:17,750 --> 01:05:14,910
lot of different stuff you might be

1503
01:05:21,050 --> 01:05:17,760
interested in relating to controversial

1504
01:05:24,470 --> 01:05:21,060
science and spirituality a lot of shows

1505
01:05:27,470 --> 01:05:24,480
up there over 350 of them or so all free

1506
01:05:28,940 --> 01:05:27,480
all available for download so do check